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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Sept 17, 2014 17:01:09 GMT -5
Guys, if I may:
I see this problem ALOT with young officers. They focus on the ranger manual and some of the TTPs (not doctrine) in there and then get all spun around. The ranger hand book is a great tool IF YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. The ranger handbook was designed to remind you how to effectively do some something at 2 am when you've been at it for 2 days straight.
If I may recommend FM 7-8 (now 3.21-8, but if you can find an older copy of 7-8 you'd be better off) I think it breaks it down better and clearly explains the principles (and doctrine, which is applicable across a lot of situations)
that, and getting together and drawing out some of the sketches step by step will help cement your knowledge. I am a big advocate of drawing it out on a whiteboard/chalk board then going and putting it in practice so that everyone gets what is going on conceptually and how they fit into the orchestra.
ok, I'll take my soapbox back. Sorry.
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Post by USMC0331 on Sept 17, 2014 17:42:32 GMT -5
Calling ya out... I need linkage please!
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Sept 17, 2014 18:28:13 GMT -5
Guys, if I may: I see this problem ALOT with young officers. They focus on the ranger manual and some of the TTPs (not doctrine) in there and then get all spun around. The ranger hand book is a great tool IF YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. The ranger handbook was designed to remind you how to effectively do some something at 2 am when you've been at it for 2 days straight. If I may recommend FM 7-8 (now 3.21-8, but if you can find an older copy of 7-8 you'd be better off) I think it breaks it down better and clearly explains the principles (and doctrine, which is applicable across a lot of situations) that, and getting together and drawing out some of the sketches step by step will help cement your knowledge. I am a big advocate of drawing it out on a whiteboard/chalk board then going and putting it in practice so that everyone gets what is going on conceptually and how they fit into the orchestra. ok, I'll take my soapbox back. Sorry. Thanks for the heads up. Here's the link to the FM 7-8 (3.21-8). It's 600+ pages armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_21x8.pdf
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Post by USMC0331 on Sept 17, 2014 20:15:04 GMT -5
PS> Thanks!
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Post by panzer0170 on Sept 18, 2014 0:55:25 GMT -5
Calling ya out... I need linkage please! And therein lies the snag. We don't publish our field manuals, because, well... You just don't. It was also something VERY northern ireland specific, basically allowed for 1x GPMG & 3x FAL, one bloke signalling, one bloke is a medic/gun 2nd, one bloke is in charge. Now you would normally have several bricks operating at a time, but they all had comms, med, 'heavy' support in built in etc. Books may be of use, but I don't know which ones. I shall research!
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Post by Diz on Sept 18, 2014 7:26:12 GMT -5
Point taken. SF does not exclusively "own" light infantry T,T,P's. Same with Rangers. They all learned the trade from light infantry units. So granted FM 7-8 SHOULD be your main resource, along with the FMFM 6-5 (Fleet Marine Force Manual), and let's include Panzer here, I'm sure Her Majesty publishes something along these lines for the squaddies over there. That being said, the SH21-76 is still the best quick reference guide out there, IF you know what you're doing. (And that's funny but we are in the same position as many young, new officers trying to learn this stuff.) But let's also be real here. If you are seriously into this stuff you want to be ranger and/or SF qual'd. They are considered the pinnacle of the grunt food chain (well... never mind). Therefor, if they publish a manual on the subject, it should be required reading. (Although to your point, you can't get your masters before you get your bachelors.)
While we're looking at other pubs, consider FM 7-92 (Inf Recon Plt), and FM 7-93 (Long Range Surveillance). I would argue that small recon teams, moving stealthily through the bush, are more akin to what we will be doing than light infantry units organized for offensive combat ops (with crew-served weapons and calls for fire). So while the basic light infantry pubs are valuable for basic individual and team skills, when it comes down to advanced team skills to support the main mission of a small 4-man team, I would say the recon manuals are valuable as well.
But again, the key is to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where Mosby comes in. The SF dudes are structured to train un-educated goat-herders on how to do this stuff. So they can be a great resource in applying this stuff in an unconventional setting. What he doing is making this kind of training knowledge available to us civilians, in case we need to use it. But make no mistake, he is not the sole source of knowledge about this stuff. Any good light infantry NCO (and MAYBE an officer or two) can teach you this stuff. Even Mosby has said that. It's just that guys like him are uniquely qualified to TEACH this stuff, as well as know what the heck they're talking about.
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Post by Diz on Sept 18, 2014 7:34:36 GMT -5
As I recall, The Brits were big into having organized cheat-sheets called an "Aide's Memoir". This was a loose-leaf notebook that held all the orders and reports formats, plus hints and suggestions for every occasion. Pretty much the same thing we use the Ranger manual for. So it sounds like a lot of this kind of knowledge is passed down through the ranks, and hand-copied into personal notebooks. But make no mistake, their guys knew their shit.
Although it would stand to reason that they would have published manuals, the same as us. They're just not in the public domain like ours.
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Post by panzer0170 on Sept 18, 2014 12:04:11 GMT -5
As I recall, The Brits were big into having organized cheat-sheets called an "Aide's Memoir". This was a loose-leaf notebook that held all the orders and reports formats, plus hints and suggestions for every occasion. Pretty much the same thing we use the Ranger manual for. So it sounds like a lot of this kind of knowledge is passed down through the ranks, and hand-copied into personal notebooks. But make no mistake, their guys knew their shit. Although it would stand to reason that they would have published manuals, the same as us. They're just not in the public domain like ours. We have PAMs and TAMs; Practical (Read: detailed, lengthy, but GOOD) and Tactical (Read: Enough info to get the job done when you're wet and annoyed) Aide Memoires. Awesome little trifold books printed on wax paper, with everything you'll ever need (Orders, specifics for occupying harbours, site selection etc, and then corps specific stuff (engineer/logistics specific etc...) It's an awesome system. Fits nicely in the pocket on a smock (odd that...)
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Sept 24, 2014 17:50:31 GMT -5
Although to your point, you can't get your masters before you get your bachelors. Any good light infantry NCO (and MAYBE an officer or two) can teach you this stuff.... Bingo. If you've got this stuff down cold (which maybe some here do) then drive on with your ranger handbook complete with luminous tape on the back for writing down your rally point should your PB be compromised in the night... definitely not an officer... thats just bad advice... : )
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Post by Diz on Sept 25, 2014 7:30:47 GMT -5
Yeah I know but there's actually one or two good ones out there.
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Post by Diz on Oct 15, 2014 16:35:39 GMT -5
Ok guys, I just ordered a hard-copy of Mosby's manual. You people need to get off your asses and do the same.
It amazes me that guys will spend $125.00+ for a custom hammer/trigger set, or whatever the latest doo-dad, but won't pony up to buy this book.
If you are at all serious about this stuff, and if you're here, I ASSume you are, then you need to get a hard copy of this manual.
Look, I am the world's biggest gear queer. I get it. This stuff is fun to collect and use. But I think it's time to get serious.
We need to be concerned with the actual planning, organizing, and training for home/retreat security. This manual is one of the best resources you are gonna find out there on this subject.
If it comes down to it, what you learn here will be invaluable.
More to come.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 23, 2014 0:26:44 GMT -5
I'd say this sums it up pretty good. I've spent the past 4 hours skim reading the book and it's a keeper.
Most of the topics are probably well known to guys here, but what I like is that this book will help you make your own MET-L by reminding you of the "basics" we take for granted.
He has a bunch of shooting drills in the back for developing shooters into "operators" that look interesting and I plan on going through each of the more advanced drills in PR on Mondays with the guys to develop PAR times to use as standards. Shooting drills without a contextual par time are not very realistic IME.
The book has good illustrations where needed. I will be getting deeper into it when I have the money to pay the guy that lent it to me so I can dogear the thing and mark it up.
I definitely second Diz, buy the book!
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Post by Diz on Oct 23, 2014 7:04:25 GMT -5
I have been reading through the digital copy again this week, waiting for my expanded hard copy. As we were discussing the break contact drill, I re-read Mosby's take on it, and then the ranger manual. He was spot on in describing the skill set and then giving you the exercise to practice and learn it.
I will be interested in hearing what you think in the way of par times for the drills.
Yeah sixty bucks may seen crazy expensive for a hard copy book these days, but suck it up and get it.
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Post by kenny256 on Oct 23, 2014 13:21:55 GMT -5
Man I really need this book....
I have got the money soooo...no more excuses...
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 23, 2014 13:50:52 GMT -5
@ Diz, I'm going to just video the drills and let you guys decide if they were done in an appropriate time. currently I have only myself and 2 newer shooters doing PR regularly if the weather is nice. This Monday will likely be rain again so I will likely be alone in the rain again. Based on the video we should be able to come to a group think on what the par times should be. Once we set them, everyone should go out and see where they measure up I believe.
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