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Post by panzer0170 on May 12, 2014 14:37:07 GMT -5
I've had some VERY limited time on the AK, and a small amount of time on the AR15 style platform, but the bulk of my experience is working the SA80, and things like loading & finding mag releases etc is not natural to me on either rifle.
IGNORING CALIBRE in so far as 'this bullet does more damage or has less penetration or will do blah blah blah, however taking into account any differences in functionality it may cause on a rifle;
AK or AR?
Assuming I am brand new to both firearms, and I have the option to go for something like an AR-10 if I want to go larger, or one of the 5.56 AKs if I wanted to go smaller.
I -THINK- I prefer AK style rifles, and my logic is that I could get AK's in the various calibres and therefore ammunition is going to be easy to come by regardless of what platform I have.
I suppose basically what I'm asking for is an unbiased (hard, I know) opinion on AK vs AR from an AC perspective, not a mall ninja or a target shooter, as well as any information on if the calibre conversion to 5.56 etc change the functionality of the rifle (I -have- noticed they make the price go up - But it would be awesome to be able to operate the same rifle with any kind of ammo, esp if you have buddies who have AKs and other buddies who have ARs, and you can run what you want without changing TTPS and basic weapon handling.
Thoughts please?
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Post by Hawkeye on May 12, 2014 16:48:19 GMT -5
Whew.....that's a biiiiiig question/subject. Having been 100% neck deep in both sides, and having worked on both, I can say this for a FACT. There is a metric ton of wrong information out via die hard lovers in both camps.
Both are viable and effective. I like AK's. A lot. However, I also like AR's and like them a bit more. One reason is.... many many years of handling, firing, training with, operating and working on the AR/M16 platform. In the US, magazines, parts, ammo, etc.... are all readily available and manufactured for the AR. The vast majority of law enforcement, govt, etc.... all use an AR variant. I like the ability to more easily configure the AR to be a general purpose weapon, or more mission specific if so desired.
My biggest concern/issue with AK's, particularly for a new person getting set up for the first time, is the availability and source for mags, ammo, and parts. 85-90% of most AK related mags, ammo, and parts, are all from overseas sources. There is very little US manufacturing support for them at the moment, though some manufacturers have been slowing bringing things out. Cost wise though, the US made items are pretty much equal to, and in some cases, more expensive than their AR counterpart. Even a lot of overseas items are now in that boat. That means that a new person getting set up, will potentially be in a dangerous position. If they don't have the $$ to purchase a decent supply of mags, ammo, parts, etc... right out of the gate, they could find themselves in trouble overnight, as something as simple as the president signing an executive order could immediately cut off the supply.
Operation wise, the two are very different. Mag changes, charging, safety manipulation, malfunction clearance.....all very different. This is an area that is very important to me, and I had to learn the hard way. I have about 30 years with of shooting, handling, manipulating, and training with an AR. It is second nature to me and does not require a lot of conscious thought. An AK however did require a lot of conscious thought. In order to get to the same level with an AK, I'd have to invest another 30 years of equal shooting, training, etc.... Thats big. Real big. I think its something that many people overlook. Now, for you personally.....I would think that the controls on an AR would be much quicker/easier for someone like you to pick up, via your time with the SA80, than an AK.
There's a lot more but I'll stop here for the moment.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 12, 2014 17:01:51 GMT -5
without going into a caliber debate, I'll offer this:
you can physically carry more smaller rounds. 5.45 and 5.56 simply weigh less round for round. Just something to consider.
I'll echo Hawkeye. The AR market in the US is HUGE. There are so many parts/pieces available it can be overwhelming. There is simply an amazing amount of 5.56 floating around in the US. That alone makes it worth considering.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 12, 2014 17:13:53 GMT -5
Hawkeye; See, for the SA80; We reach over the top to cock the weapon, in a similar fashion to what I see people doing with an AK, but we have a mag release similar to the AR. I totally get the 30 years of working one system thing, but with little on either I can choose early on to invest time one way or the other. One of the key things that I struggle with as of right now is that you guys have the mag well in the 'wrong' place. I know if I come up from my elbow with the mag I'm gonna hit the mag well, every time, with an SA80. With an AR/AK I have to check where the mag well is, but I'm sure that's something you gain as a skill over time and with repetition. I'm looking at 5.56 AK stuff at the moment from youtube(specifically MAC) that's a little more expensive but will run P-MAG, USGI etc. Do you think it would be valid insofar as resupply/ammo costs etc to get one of those and a 7.62x39, thereby guaranteeing ammo availability and allowing me 'power' options. I know you personally need to think quite consciously about using the rifle, but if you had a twin, who had done everything you had but grown up with the AK platform, are there any inherent flaws in the AK -OR- the AR that the other does better, other than the quoted 'ruggedness' of the AK or the 'precision' of the AR? Many thanks for your thoughts, and the addition of context - You admit to favouring the AR because of your many years of experience with it, and that it colours your opinion. Many don't, they just argue that X is better than Y 'because', rather than backing it up. @eddie - I perhaps didn't explain my reasons behind ignoring calibre. Hopefully they're explained a little better here, with my idea of getting a 5.56 AK that accepts AR style mags. I'm not sure if this is a horrific idea, or actually quite smart. They seem to have an AR style mag release & bolt release, as well. Just trying to scope these things out. Given that I can apparently buy a rifle without being a resident in the US, I could potentially build something that I can leave with a relative/friend in the US in the meantime.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 12, 2014 17:24:44 GMT -5
Nope, not a caliber thing, just a logistics thing. from that stand point, a 5.56 AK would (mostly) take advantage of whats widely available. Your choice is yours, I only chimed in to add some food for thought. Theres a lot to be said for AKs (like ammo cost makes it easy to stock pile a bunch of rounds).
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Post by panzer0170 on May 12, 2014 17:31:42 GMT -5
I like food for thought! I just figure if I get some opinions from like minded folk (rather than the same stuff spewed out by fanboys of either platform, or by target shooters, competition folk etc...) then I'd get a better sense of if it's likely to fit MY needs, not the needs of a target shooter, or a competitioneer etc.
All input is welcome, and any questions I have are likely just me trying to get a better handle on what you're saying; For one you speak a totally different language, even if most of the words are the same. Every time I see the word 'suspenders' I giggle like a schoolgirl because that's what women wear with tights - We'd call them braces, or in a military context probably a Yoke. That's an extreme example but I find sometimes I struggle communicating effectively with my Fiancee because of the (invisible) language/culture barrier.
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Post by Hawkeye on May 12, 2014 18:03:37 GMT -5
Hawkeye; See, for the SA80; We reach over the top to cock the weapon, in a similar fashion to what I see people doing with an AK, but we have a mag release similar to the AR. I totally get the 30 years of working one system thing, but with little on either I can choose early on to invest time one way or the other. One of the key things that I struggle with as of right now is that you guys have the mag well in the 'wrong' place. I know if I come up from my elbow with the mag I'm gonna hit the mag well, every time, with an SA80. With an AR/AK I have to check where the mag well is, but I'm sure that's something you gain as a skill over time and with repetition.........................I know you personally need to think quite consciously about using the rifle, but if you had a twin, who had done everything you had but grown up with the AK platform, are there any inherent flaws in the AK -OR- the AR that the other does better, other than the quoted 'ruggedness' of the AK or the 'precision' of the AR? Just to be a bit more specific here.... The top item(s) for me in this regard are the manipulation of the safety, and, the bolt locking back on an empty mag. Both specifically from a safety standpoint regarding what I said previously. As far as flaws... I don't think either really has any "flaws". They are just different. I do think that the safety operation does lend itself to be more intuitive on an AR, even for a new user, over an AK. Currently, the only AK I would consider, is one from Definitive Arms like you mention. See the video below. If I were going to get another AK, it would be this one. It solves many of my personal issues with the AK, with the exception of the safety itself. One other issue I see people doing, is trying to run one like the other. You cant do that. You have to run an AK like an AK and an AR like an AR.
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Post by Hawkeye on May 12, 2014 18:11:06 GMT -5
Honestly, for you, if/when you get over here, the one gun that makes the most sense to me for you to look at, would be a Tavor. I know that's not the subject of this discussion though.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 12, 2014 18:23:08 GMT -5
Oh, trust me. The Tavor is sat in the back of my mind for this whole discussion. And, potentially, the RFB. I'm not sold on the RFB though - It's a little too new, but if it has time to settle in and they iron out some of the publicized issues? I'd take one in a heartbeat, as well as a Tavor.
I'm conscious of the limitations of bullpups, though they ARE what I'm used to. Really what I need to do is get myself a nice basic setup for each rifle (rented, borrowed or otherwise) all together, and see what suits for my needs.
One thing I have noted with standard configuration rifles is that they feel very front heavy (which they are, compared, extra barrel, weight of a magazine...) which completely changes how I hold the rifle and shoot.
LOTS to digest, anyone with any extra points feel free to throw them up here and I'll probably keep coming back here and throwing up extra questions, thoughts and other generic brain dumps.
Cheers Hawkeye, Eddie & anyone else who has any thoughts to help me out!
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Post by Hawkeye on May 12, 2014 18:50:50 GMT -5
Simple answer...... get over here and then you can try things out first hand.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 12, 2014 18:56:08 GMT -5
@ Hawkeye!
I've played with a nice AR, need to find a decent AK to toy with, and somewhere I can rent a Tavor, else SOMEONE who has one. I'm going to be over in July, but nowhere near anyone on here, I don't think. (MN!) Will be looking at getting some range time in, hoping to find some outdoor ranges (Last time I was over in winter, and we DID go play with that AR outside, but after about an hour everyone was getting cold, so the decision was made to come back inside and drink beer and watch movies instead!
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on May 12, 2014 19:56:34 GMT -5
Tavor in 5.56, with the optional 9mm barrel so you can use your 9mm ammo if you want. (But only if you have 9mm ammo). Maybe they will have a 7.62x39 barrel in the future for the Tavor? I came from AK and now to the AR. Like both, as Hawkeye said. They both have pros and cons. I feel that the AR is simpler for a new person to use having transitioned. Also, many more aftermarket parts and accessories for the AR at the moment, although there are a lot more for AKs now then there were several years ago when I was outfitting my Yugo, and then my Arsenal and then my Romanian build. The Yugo stuff was much harder to locate. My group shoots ARs so I didn't want to be the odd man out if we were on a patrol and needed an extra mag. Still learning the manipulation for it, but it gets better each time out. The way things are here politically, things imported seem to be drying up. Look at the 5.45... www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/
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Post by USMC0331 on May 12, 2014 20:14:00 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Erick on May 12, 2014 20:26:43 GMT -5
Big question .
I have owned an AK before and loved it. But i have come full circle to ARs and have owned approx 18 ARs in the last 2 years shot them, compared them, sold them and bought new ones just for fun. (Had extra money to spend after my divorce)
Even negating the fact that the US military trained me on it (which is a big advantage IMO) but the ergonomics of the AR ARE better. Also the support form the market is much greater than AK's.
... accuracy is better (tho some higher end Aks do better than most think) Plus a greater selection of specialty ammo is available to us in for ARs.
And finally the AK never had a reliability advantage over the AR as big as most believed .....or what advantage did still exist as of the 21st century was mostly due to AKs ability to digest cheaper (steel cased and surplus) ammo.
The advent of Piston ARs has taken care of a lot of the remaining complaints on AR's (though evolved DI guns are very sweet too) ...my LWRCs and my SIG 516s eat even Tulammo all day long.
Even though basic ARs due to the pressure of the market have become quite good..... take an evolved AR like a SR556CLA or a SIG 516 just for discussion...
They both have adjustable gas settings so even the softest shooting ammo (PMC Bronze, TUlAmmo) will fully cycle even when these guns are dirty and dry (being piston neither happens all that easy) they come w/ rails and CHF barrels and w/ match ammo do 1 MOA.
Event though MSRP is 1700 (SIG) and 2000 (Ruger) street price is about 1350 for each, so they are hundreds less than the big name (LMT, Noveske, LWRC) guns while offering the same features and performance.
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Post by USMC0331 on May 12, 2014 20:44:57 GMT -5
I started with an AK as my SHTF gun, sold it for an LMT upper and never looked back. I like both platforms. Take away all variables like ammo, OPFOR commonality, etc. AR wins for the simple fact it can reach out with optic options and ballistics that the AK doesn't have. Make a head shot at 300 yards with your AK and get back to me. Now COM at 400/500... I'm waiting. Spell checked by iPhone
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