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Post by panzer0170 on May 15, 2014 11:52:54 GMT -5
@ USMC & Hawkeye: Agreed! I think the Tavor wins my heart, as well as my head.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on May 15, 2014 14:47:50 GMT -5
My focused wooden nickle's worth, specifically for you Panzer, if you were here in the US, would be between a good 16" midlength AR, or a Tavor. Those would honestly be my two choices for you hands down. They would both be equal, with the AR having better parts availability, etc..., but, your long time experience with a bullpup being an equal counterweight in favor of the Tavor. Not only this, but if your survival group has all 5.56mm ARs, you still share mag and ammo commonality, so it's not like you'd have to re-calibrate that at least. I'd get the Tavor, find out what breaks under use, and buy spares of those parts. We pretty much know what breaks on ARs over time (thanks to decades and decades of experience, this is something that you can look up online) and can stock up on those parts. We don't have that kind of data on the Tavor - yet. (Sidebar: My gun-crush on the Tavor continues unabated...)
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Post by panzer0170 on May 15, 2014 15:26:10 GMT -5
@uw: No need to tell me about that; The SA80 has a bad rep because it started for a different calibre and through a series of bad decisions the initial product was... CRAP. Getting rid of 'disposable' magazines and using quality ones, getting HK in to fix the issues with dirt getting in the ejection port/stoppages (dust cover & a 'shaped' cocking handle) as well as a better gas system? I only ever got to play with the A2 version, after HK got their hands on it. I would take it over an AR anyday, and mostly that's because gun-crush, but partly it's because my AR skills are like watching a five year old wearing mittens trying to help grandma knit....
Definitely like the 5.56 commonality (part of the reason when I was asking about AK's I was looking at the 5.56 ones, not just the 7.62x39 ones.) I will be VERY interested to see what the triggers are like. I've never been too fussed, and used to a clunky, fat, horrible trigger on an SA80 - But it's never stopped me hitting the target out to 600m. I've fired a friends AR and it's... well, it's like driving a fancy car rather than a beater, and now I want a trigger like that too.
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Post by Hawkeye on May 15, 2014 16:57:14 GMT -5
There is a mod you can do yourself to improve the Tavor's trigger, not that its all that bad to begin with (to me), and there are also already a couple of top end replacement trigger groups available for them as well.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 15, 2014 17:06:40 GMT -5
@ Hawkeye: Seen those, already in my mind. There also looks to be quite a tidy light modification for foregrip. (More for Home Defence, rather than outside things... keeps it nice and streamlined though. I hate the idea of throwing loads of stuff all over a rifle..)
There's some decent modifications out there for it already - Some I think are a little bit over the top, some are pretty damned tidy.
But as you've said (paraphrasing;) 'It's not all that bad to begin with', and I agree - like I said the SA80 trigger is... all kinds of crap, however I think it's a perfectly 'good' trigger. It works and it's never given me trouble. TBH depending on price? I probably wouldn't bother doing the mod, unless I was buying spare parts and this was an option at a similar price. Too much gets thrown in in the way of 'toys', that are expensive that you can't replace on a weapon that you RELY on. (Range guns? Go for your life. SHTF go to rifle? KISS!)
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Post by kenny256 on Jun 8, 2014 6:55:31 GMT -5
I started with the ak and love them, but my go to is my Ar. Most of my friends that are shooters have one or two so commonality is what really made me change platforms.
I have no problem running it and I think the AR is a great choice for any shooter to have. The parts,ammo, and mags are plentiful in my area and it just makes the most sense.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 22, 2014 18:46:36 GMT -5
Update:
I've just spent 3 weeks stateside, and we went to the range a couple of times. Fired a few rifles, got my hands on a few more (no shooting though).
In one of the range/gunshops I was in they did in fact have a Tavor for sale (Not this time, for me!) So I picked it up and got myself a hold of it.
I am now officially decided. The Ergonomics (for my prior experience) are pretty much outweighing everything else. Standard configuration rifles still feel un-natural and very front heavy to me, and the Tavor just seemed like an extension of myself, rather than a tool in my hands.
Assuming it shoots tight (evidence so far says yes) and is reliable (again, evidence points to yes) then I think this is going to be my GP rifle. Tack a Glock 17 on, and I think that's me. Perhaps other guns for plinkers/hunting, but within the limitations of the 'minuteman' concept... I've found my niche, I think.
Glock 17, Gen 3. Again, heard very little in the way of slander against it, except people who are DIE HARD fans of something else ('It'll never be a .45...) And 9mm is a nice easy round for me to fire without having to keep in practise. It's been YEARS since I've fired a reasonable calibre handgun, and I put all the rounds (15/15) within the 4/5 point scoring on a human target after a 5 round check to see where they were falling on a bullseye target. I have work to do for speed and grouping, but if I can do that after a few years of not having fired anything bigger'n a .22, it instills confidence. I find that .45 has a little bit more recoil than I can currently handle (for fast AND accurate shots).
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Post by Diz on Jul 23, 2014 7:15:43 GMT -5
This was a pretty reasonable discussion, all things considered.
In theory: If you had a twin and he could grow up shooting anything he wanted? I would go with the bullpup design, mainly to get a full length bbl in a submachine gun package.
In practice: Go with what is primarily available in your area. For North America this is the AR-15. For GB, dunno. I would hope at some point you guys would go with AR's, at least Canadian models.
In either case, weapons choice doesn't mean dick if you can't survive to use it. We should all probably be arguing over seed varieties rather than weapons choices.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 23, 2014 7:48:48 GMT -5
Here in GB? Too much effort to get a gun I'll struggle to be able to use, given I'm looking at Emigrating in the next 3-5 years.
As far as crop-stuff, now there I have the advantage on you: My fiancee is a proper plant geek. She knows genetics stuff, care stuff and all the stuff in between. She's got a degree in plant things. I let her do the smarts as far as that's concerned, but am willing to do fetch and carry. In fact when we move over I'd be looking at a least a little farmstead, given the short growing season in MN it's not a MASSIVE commitment.
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Post by Diz on Jul 23, 2014 8:23:16 GMT -5
You're a lot smarter than 99% of the "preppers" out there. Get a gal who can grow food. Brilliant.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 23, 2014 8:55:56 GMT -5
It's not even a prepper thing, that's the best bit. It's a life thing. The way I see it, the more I can supplement myself when everything works, the more money I have to enjoy life. Groceries are expensive (veg etc) because we pay for them to be grown, shipped etc, and everyone adds 2-3 cents/lb. You get rid of all those people, and you need a bit of time each day to water/weed/care. Now 5 acres is apparently the minimum for true self sustainment, but 2-3 to augment would make an excellent start.
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 23, 2014 11:53:16 GMT -5
A Tavor and a Glock 17 would be an extremely viable and effective combination, especially considering your hand on history. A couple of unsolicited points from me.... Since the Tavor is obviously not as prominent as other weapons, just be sure to include a redundant spare parts kit for it. Springs, pins, fire control parts, etc... Consider a Glock 19 vs. a 17. It will still use 17 mags, but is a little easier to carry in both a covert and overt manner. If you have large primate size hands though, a 17 may be a better option. I love G19's and its my preferred sidearm, however, if it were 1/8th of an inch smaller, it wouldn't work for me.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 23, 2014 12:02:09 GMT -5
I actually have child sized hands. My next job will be to get on and fire a 19, and see how I like it. I find the 17 is fine to hold, I'm honestly more bothered about recoil and it's effect on my aim. The 19 is definitely in the consideration process though (concealability, if nothing else). The point about spares is valid too, and important.
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 23, 2014 15:07:40 GMT -5
I find, and many other people do too, that the G19 has less felt recoil and less muzzle rise than a G17.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 23, 2014 18:30:26 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing, I've never fired one, but... How the f*ck does that work?
(My assumptions being: assuming the basic logic of heavier firearm with same round = less recoil)
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