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Post by USMC0331 on Jul 23, 2014 19:08:09 GMT -5
Longer lever on the G17. The difference between the G17 and G34 is why I run a G17. It feels like you are waiting for the G34 to get back on target.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 23, 2014 19:11:47 GMT -5
usmc0331 I don't understand what you mean by 'longer lever'? And how does it compare to a 19?
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Post by USMC0331 on Jul 23, 2014 22:09:14 GMT -5
pivot point remains the same, muzzle blast is farther away = longer "lever"
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 24, 2014 10:04:52 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing, I've never fired one, but... How the f*ck does that work? (My assumptions being: assuming the basic logic of heavier firearm with same round = less recoil) There were some articles/studies done some years ago about it. Long story short and in simple terms, the slide weight and recoil spring rate on the 19 is right at the apex for working with the 9mm round in that the speed at which the slide cycles, so that right about the time your starting to feel the recoil and the muzzle is starting to rise, the slide is just going back into battery, effectively countering most of said recoil/muzzle rise. On a 17, the slide is a bit heavier, and thus cycles slower.... its all a timing thing obviously dealing in micro-seconds.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 24, 2014 13:54:18 GMT -5
usmc0331, Hawkeye thanks for the explanations! Makes sense, and now I have to try one. The difference to me between 15 or 17 rounds is negligible (especially when you can carry a 17, or even 30 [impractical, I know...) round magazine offside.) That added concealability and lower recoil sounds ideal. The 17 seems to be a nice easy gun to control as it is, the 19 could be the perfect tool!
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Post by USMC0331 on Jul 24, 2014 20:35:07 GMT -5
There are two reasons I run a G17 over a G19. I have large hands and the G17 fits better. The G17 is interchangeable with current LEO G22 gear.
If I were to go to a G19, I would still run it in G17 length holsters on my battle gear so I had the option of using a BFPU G22 and mags if needed.
Has anyone heard of issues with a WML for the G19?
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Jul 25, 2014 19:34:37 GMT -5
I really wish I could like the glock 19. I makes a lot of sense when you seriously consider it. 4 inch barrel for appropriate velocity, compact frame which integrates well when you are carrying a rifle, concealable, reliable, parts are readily available and inexpensive... the list goes on.
I just hate glocks. A 19 or a 17 will serve you well. They are the most common handgun in the US, possibly the world, which means parts, holsters, and ammo are all very easy to find.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 26, 2014 3:32:18 GMT -5
Each to their own. Out of curiosity, what is it you don't like?
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Jul 26, 2014 11:50:52 GMT -5
For me, they feel really awkward and uncomfortable, and I cant seem to conceal one very well (I'm kind of smaller framed)
The grip angle (for me) gives me trouble when trying to shoot fast at close range targets. I just seem to instinctively shoot better with a 1911-esque grip angle, and other platforms just fit my hand better.
Its not something that cannot be overcome by training, but why would I spend money and time training to get to where I already am with another platform?
They are great pistols and logically glocks makes the MOST sense, they just dont work as well for ME. I really wish they did.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jul 26, 2014 12:50:11 GMT -5
This is one reason I like this forum. Several on this thread have reasons why they like or dislike something. They give their reasons and that's it. No smashing the other person(s) that likes something different. I learned a while ago that there are many reasons why someone may like something other then what I like. I explain why I like something and if there are faults to the product I like that I tolerate I try and explain those. I believe many people that are trying to learn read too many posts that are one sided, then they go and buy and are disappointed. We all can argue the many this vs that rivals that are out there in the weapon world, but what it really comes down to is personal preference. I applaud all here. That said....I carry a G-19 or a G-23. I have the G-19 mags for CCW and the G-17 mags for SHTF mode. I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2K that takes G-17 mags, and the 33 rounders as well, that I keep in my vehicle in case I need to walk home someday.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 26, 2014 22:07:04 GMT -5
For me, they feel really awkward and uncomfortable, and I cant seem to conceal one very well (I'm kind of smaller framed) The grip angle (for me) gives me trouble when trying to shoot fast at close range targets. I just seem to instinctively shoot better with a 1911-esque grip angle, and other platforms just fit my hand better. Its not something that cannot be overcome by training, but why would I spend money and time training to get to where I already am with another platform? They are great pistols and logically glocks makes the MOST sense, they just dont work as well for ME. I really wish they did. My pistol experience is limited. I dislike the personality of, but respect where he is coming from, James Yaeger (He is James, right?) He is very opinionated, and very brash. But he makes an excellent point. People who slate the glock because it doesn't feel right, but change ghe grips on their 1911 or other firearms... are fucktards...I understand this is not you, and I am glad you are of the same mindset, albeit a PERSONAL advocate of other systems. Perhaps, for you, some fancy grips, and extra money, would make the Glock you deserve. But then again, if you beleive what you have is good enough for you, why bother finding out? Regards, Panz
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 26, 2014 22:14:34 GMT -5
This is one reason I like this forum. Several on this thread have reasons why they like or dislike something. They give their reasons and that's it. No smashing the other person(s) that likes something different. I learned a while ago that there are many reasons why someone may like something other then what I like. I explain why I like something and if there are faults to the product I like that I tolerate I try and explain those. I believe many people that are trying to learn read too many posts that are one sided, then they go and buy and are disappointed. We all can argue the many this vs that rivals that are out there in the weapon world, but what it really comes down to is personal preference. I applaud all here. That said....I carry a G-19 or a G-23. I have the G-19 mags for CCW and the G-17 mags for SHTF mode. I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2K that takes G-17 mags, and the 33 rounders as well, that I keep in my vehicle in case I need to walk home someday. 2 questions: 1) Why not carry G17 reloads all the time? Is 2 rounds all that different for CCW size? (obv G19 mag IN the gun...) 2) Why not carry a rifle (in calibre, at least) to get home? Common ammo seems to be the obvious choice, but it also seems to be somewhat of a self imposed handicap? (Power, penetration etc...) (All this assumes G19, not G23, as an aside, why carry 2 calibres at all? Why not just go 9mm?)
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jul 27, 2014 7:45:18 GMT -5
This is one reason I like this forum. Several on this thread have reasons why they like or dislike something. They give their reasons and that's it. No smashing the other person(s) that likes something different. I learned a while ago that there are many reasons why someone may like something other then what I like. I explain why I like something and if there are faults to the product I like that I tolerate I try and explain those. I believe many people that are trying to learn read too many posts that are one sided, then they go and buy and are disappointed. We all can argue the many this vs that rivals that are out there in the weapon world, but what it really comes down to is personal preference. I applaud all here. That said....I carry a G-19 or a G-23. I have the G-19 mags for CCW and the G-17 mags for SHTF mode. I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2K that takes G-17 mags, and the 33 rounders as well, that I keep in my vehicle in case I need to walk home someday. 2 questions: 1) Why not carry G17 reloads all the time? Is 2 rounds all that different for CCW size? (obv G19 mag IN the gun...) 2) Why not carry a rifle (in calibre, at least) to get home? Common ammo seems to be the obvious choice, but it also seems to be somewhat of a self imposed handicap? (Power, penetration etc...) (All this assumes G19, not G23, as an aside, why carry 2 calibres at all? Why not just go 9mm?) All good questions. I'll respond to them in order... 1. I don't always carry an extra mag on person. I depends on what I'm wearing, where I'll be and overall threats I'd be expecting. The OTW double mag carrier I have (Blade-Tech) just doesn't conceal well with the G-17 mags for me. I know they are only .5"-.75" larger, but I carry either in the appendix ITW, or 4-5 o'clock OTW. I carry my phone on my left about 9 o'clock. I just can't seem to conceal as well with the extra mags period, but more so with G-17s. Any ideas would be appreciated. Sometimes I'll carry an extra mag (either one) in my cargo pocket. 2. If I'm having to hike home then things have gone a bit sideways. I'll have about 40 miles, and will be trying to go low profile. The Sub 2K can fold and be hidden under a jacket or carried inside a computer bag slung on my shoulder. If needed, I'll sling it outright. Carrying extra mags for an additional rifle in a different caliber I felt would be too much in weight and concealability. I carry four 33 rounders, and four G-17 mags and four G-19 mags. This gives me about 260 rounds. My plan, hope I never have to do it, would be to try and go fast and lite. I have a TT-ROP as my GHB. 3. As far as the two calibers, 9mm and .40, I bought the model 23 first and still like it. I then bought the model 19 for my son when he was young due to less recoil. I also have a Lone Wolf barrel in 9mm for the G-23. Being the same frame, all accessories are compatible. I've since bought another G-19, so in essence I have changed to the 9mm, but still have a bunch of .40 ammo laid up. I'll still carry the .40 at times as the manipulation is the same, just a bit more recoil, but I'm used to it. The Sub 2Ks are very hard to come by, especially in the glock models. I researched and found the G-19 model for the Sub2K has a bit shorter grip, even though it uses the same mags. I felt the G-17 model would serve me better. I walked into a show one day and there was one for sale. I should have bought it on the spot, but walked around the show for an hour and came back. It was still there so I got it plus the G-17 mag that comes with it and a glock 33 rounder for $350 IIRC.
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Post by Diz on Jul 27, 2014 14:07:27 GMT -5
I want to commend you guys for setting the tone for the forum here. I like a place where you can state your opinions (within reason) and not have to worry about being body-slammed about it. Rather than refute what someone else is doing, point by point, ad naseum, just state what you are doing differently, and let the readers decide which way makes more sense to them. Much better than dick-measuring contests where guys are more interested in defending their views rather than discovering the truth.
Extra credit to those that actually go out and train with this stuff, and develop T,T,P's for armed citizens in a WROL situation. You know it was interesting, as I was talking with SP1 this weekend we were discussing training methods and found we were on the same sheet of music, about using dry fire/ blank fire training for the vast majority of training, with live fire to validate the training, not necessarily drive it, as is the case with many.
The use of a sub-gun and pistol combo, with common mags, is a very good technique for E&E sits such as we may face. Papa Sierra has a very nice set up here. For low profile situations, this is a very functional load out. Throw a windshirt over it and no one's the wiser.
Calibers, weapons choices, etc. Lots of different things out there. I have my druthers but I'm not going to beat everyone over the head with them. In the end, whatever I have to fight with, I'll take to the fray.
One thing to add. Hawkeye's evil twin said a large majority of people carry the G-19 world-wide. Why? Because it works, almost flawlessly, and, it is easy to carry and conceal. So it's not always about pure ballistics, muzzle flip, etc. It is also about what can be carried and used in most situations. I have found that SF dudes like him prefer shit that actually works in the real world, not necessarily what is best in theory. Just food for thought.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 27, 2014 16:22:15 GMT -5
So, here's a thought.... Tavor has a 9mm conversion kit.... Is small enough to drop into a reasonable sized ruck for 'concealment', and does everything ELSE, so far, that I need a rifle to do (except be whisper quiet, and hold unlimited ammo for zero weight penalty...) Though I must admit, I WOULD probably prefer a rifle calibre, I'd have to test a setup of BOTH before I made a decision... Definitely a good option though, in the 9mm sub gun!
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