III Rifleman Standards - MVT

[USMC0331]

Just found this at www.maxvelocitytactical.com/2014/11/iii-rifleman-combat-task-proficiency/ and think he is on the right track.  After doing the A-drill last Monday and being completely humbled by the results, I'm more than determined to create a standard for myself and those training with me.

I'm curious what people here think about this and if the rough-draft items below are reasonable or as was stated by Eric in the "Let's get Real" thread, are we not creating standards that are applicable to those who will be performing them?

I know Mosby wants every 50-65 year old to be in SPECOP (20yr old) shape, but the reality is another matter.  Sure we all need a bar to shoot for, but shooting for a bar that is on par with a 20yr old body when you are 50 is about as realistic as shooting for Olympic status when you are 24.

Anything to ad?

SHOOT:



1) Load, unload and perform malfunction/stoppage drills on rifle and handgun.



2) Pass marksmanship standards (TBD) on rifle and handgun.



Update: these marksmanship standards should be achievable on a 25 meter range. Either with smaller silhouettes as the military does to represent 300 meters, or with an entirely different dynamic combat shooting test. We are not training to sit in a battle tench and shoot Ivan at 300, so a different test would be useful.



- Perhaps an initial grouping size standard test for the fundamentals.



- A dynamic shoot with hits to center mass counted. standing, kneeling, prone etc. Same principle for handgun.



This will be worked on.



3) Clean and maintain personal weapons, including field cleaning.



4) Prepare a range card.



5) If applicable: night marksmanship qualification using night vision gear.



MOVE:



6) PT Test: ‘2 miler’ – 30 lb pack, rifle. Rolling or flat terrain. 18 minutes.



Update: this should be age graded, just like the army PT test. This is subject to review and testing, but right now I am thinking:



30 and younger: 18 minutes



31 – 40: 19 minutes



41 – 50: 20 minutes



51 – 55: 21 minutes



55 and older: 22 minutes



7) Navigate: use a military map and compass, navigate point to point across country. Azimuth, terrain association, route selection etc.



8) Familiarity with squad and team movement SOP techniques and formations. Tactical movement:



Dismounted



Vehicle mounted



9) Basic fieldcraft: camouflage and concealment, movement under enemy observation.



10) Avoid thermal surveillance utilizing terrain and vegetation masking.



11) Knot tying and obstacle crossing techniques.



COMMUNICATE:



12) Perform voice communications include reports, voice procedure, phonetic alphabet. SITREP, SPOTREP, & MEDEVAC.



13) Competency with group communication equipment (squad level).



14) Perform visual signalling. Hand and visual signalling techniques.



CP Oct 14 6



FIGHT:



15) Move under direct fire: fire and movement.



16) Perform unit SOP break contact/anti-ambush drills.



17) Enter and clear a room.



18) Perform unit ambush, hasty attack and raid SOPs.



19) Perform unit reconnaissance patrol, observation post and security patrol SOPs.



20) Perform unit patrol base SOP and establish a buddy pair shelter area.



21) Identify temporary fighting positions.



22) Construct buddy pair fighting positions.



23) React to indirect fire.



24) Search enemy dead.



25) Prisoner handling.



26) Conduct tactical combat casualty care (TC3) to combat lifesaver standard.



27) Conduct personal administration in the field: maintain combat effectiveness.



28) Unit patrol ‘actions on’ drills SOP testing: actions on:



Lights/flares



Halts



Enemy pre-seen



Conduct of a hasty ambush



Linear Danger Areas



Movement of a casualty

[panzer0170]

'ACFT 1:

Part 1:

-800m warm up in 7 minutes 30 seconds immediately followed by

-2400m speed march in 15 minutes

-20Kg load to be carried (Including rifle and ancils)



Part 2:

RMTs (Representative Military Tasks)

(These are listed in the Pamphlet and below)

-Chosen by the PTI

-Must do atleast 3 RMTs



ACFT 2:

Conducted over two days.

Day 1:-20Km endurance march over varied terrain

-Atleast 6Km off road

-Must be completed within 3 hours 25 mins and 30 hours 30 mins

-30Kg load to be carried





Day 2; Part 1:-20Km endurance march over varied terrain

-Atleast 6Km off road

-Must be completed within 2 hours 55 mins and 3 hours

-20Kg load to be carried



Day 2; Part 2:

-Selection of RMTs (As per ACFT1;part 2)



RMTs

1. Unaided climbs into and out of the rear of a 4-tonner. (Tailgate down)

2. Jump 1.8mtr ditch/gap

3. Firemans carry on good terrain - 100mtrs

4. Casualty drag on grass - 70/75kg dummy - 50mtrs

5. Scale standard 2mtr wall on obstacle course

6. Single lift of 30kg ammunition box - 1.45mtrs

7. Carry 2 x Jerry cans 150mtrs (Each weighs 20Kg)

8. Perform a regain on a single rope bridge

9. Shuttle Sprints - 5 x 20m - 56 seconds

10. Climb and Descend a Hemp/ Nylon rope under control'

That'd be what we test as. ACFT Part 1 would be done one weekend, with ACFT Part 2 completed the following weekend. (We'd do it Monday/Thursday/Friday... But if you've got time to do that during the week you've got far too much free time and I want it!)

I've only skimmed the rest but it all seems reasonable.

[Diz]

I like what he's doing; I think you need reasonable standards to train and shoot for. I would only caution that his skill sets, like many others, are based on light infantry standards. Don't get me wrong, I applaud what he's doing, along with the rest of the III percenter crowd, but I would only add that there are many other skill sets that need to be addressed for the here, and now. And the possibility of later.

MV is an example of what I was referring to earlier about those focused on U/W skill sets, vs FID. Not that they're not valid, or even applicable, more like getting way ahead of things.

I think his particular standards come from Her Majesty's troops, which are pretty good as something to shoot for, although you have to make allowances for different age groups. In our case, the prepper movement seems to be made up of older individuals than a typical light infantry squad, so we are going to have to establish what is reasonable in our particular case.

You know I find this amusing, because when I was younger, I would say much the same things. You know, everyone has to be in top shape, soldiering is not for everyone, yadi yah. And that's all well and good, if you are a bunch of youngsters and can make the grade. But now I have a slightly different outlook on things. Just because you can no longer max the PT tests, or "O" course, or whatever, does not mean you no longer have any business trying to defend yourself. It just means you have to be smarter about it, and leverage what you're good at, versus just brute strength.

So it's all well and good to say we have these PT standards, and you should try and live up to them, but I think just because a person can't do them is no reason to completely discount them. If it was me, I'd have a set of three standards, much the same way the Crotch has a Marksman, a Sharpshooter, and an Expert Rifleman. In this manner, more guys could participate as rifleman, that really aren't "cooks" but can't meet a ranger school-like standard.

Also, remember these guys aren't doing this stuff for free. Sure you can say they're doing a very patriotic service by offering this stuff, but at the same time you can't lose sight of the fact that they also have to make a buck doing it, which sometimes leads to a little bit of hype to pimp the product.

You can say, hey Diz, why don't you make sure you take your own advice, and yeah, I'll accept that. But at least I'll admit it. If you challenge a lot of these other folks on their products, be it chest rigs or training, they can get pretty defensive about it.

[panzer0170]

I forgot to qualify the above; The shorter times (1-2 miler stuff) once you hit 35, you get an extra 30 seconds each year, up to 50 - at fifty you're not expected to actually DO any of these....

[Diz]

Piss off mate, I'm 59 and can out-PT guys half my age!

You know, this reminds me of my time with the rifle companies. The Company Gunny much less the First Sgt couldn't keep up with the young studs. These guys had 15-20 years in grade, with more time on the shitter than I had in the Corps. I could out-run them, no sleep, dead drunk, probably with a ruck on. But so what. I would have loved to have seen someone tell them they were no longer needed just cuz they couldn't meet some PT standard. Uh sorry Gunny, but you gotta go supervise the cooks cuz you're not good enough to run with the rifleman any more. Yeah right. This whole concept of everybody has to meet this standard or go play with the pups is a bit mis-guided.

We strive to meet that standard, but at the end of the day, you fight with what you have.

Besides, I know some older/overweight individuals that I'd rather have on the line beside me, rather than some PT stud, who may break and run. It's very important, but it ain't everything. I'm gonna run this sumbitch and find out just exactly how hard it is and report back.

[panzer0170]

Totally agreed - Don't get me wrong. There are guys now who joined christ knows how long ago and are pushing CIVILIAN retirement age, who are running sub 8 minute mile and a half times.

For me, the 1.5 mile run is a bullshit assessment of fitness, but I understand why it exists (V02 max test - en masse. If you pass the standard, chances are if you're shot you'll last the 'golden hour' for casevac).

I have found in my experience I run that distance at ABOUT the time limit for a pass. Which makes me slow/unfit. I find if you throw some weight on my back and get me to run the same test (ACFT1, in essence) I can do it in about the same time. Most people add 2-3 minutes, unless they're 'super fit'.

2 types of fitness - Physical (Gym queen types) and Mental (People you can't stop, even if they're not physically fit) The TRULY BRILLIANT tend to have both of the above in shedloads.

[Diz]

OK sports fans, here it is. I went out and tested the waters so to speak. It's not the exact same test, but it will give us some idea of what to expect. I'm 5'11", 158 lbs. I'm coming off my last tri season, and am now doing strength training and skill work for next year. I did strength training this morning, mostly lower work (leg press, extension, curl) and some core work (back extension, ab curls). Took a couple of hours break. Ate a light snack. Hydrated. Loaded up my MR assault pack with 31 lbs (ammo, water, food, clothing, batts, etc.). Ran in running shorts, t-shirt, and running shoes. No rifle or cammies to freak out the neighbors. 2 mile course, rolling hills, dry asphalt, 72 deg. Ran the whole way, no walking up the hills, did it in 19:51. For comparision my 5K run time right now is 24 min and some change, or about 8 min/ mile for 3 miles. So slick I could probably do 2 miles in 16 min or sub-8 min/ miles. With 31 extra lbs it slowed me down to 10 min/ mile pace.

So how would I do on the MVT test? Dunno. With rifle and cammies and boots, it would have slowed me down some but not too much. If I actually trained for this some more (which I plan on) I could get that down a bit.

So it is doable. If you train for it. The question is, what standard do you want to set. As mentioned in another thread, Mosby sets a standard of 15 min/ mile with full load out and combat conditions. Sure, you could shave that a bit if your buddies were in trouble, BUT you still gotta fight when you get there.

Some other thoughts. I'd like to try this in a full combat load out, especially with a chest rig to re-distribute the load up front a little. I can definitely feel it in my lower back, but again I did fairly heavy back extensions this morning as well. Still I think you need to be careful with stressing your lower back (and other body parts) with ruck runs. Start light, go slow. It really drove home the point of losing the extra weight. I could easily weigh that much right now if I didn't stay in shape.

[norinco]

I'll be honest. The MVT rucking PT test irks me. Mainly because while me and mine have been training to a standard we haven't been traning to THAT standard. 15/min mile pace with 40 lbs pack has been our standard whether 2 or 4 or 8 or 12 miles.

And for the past 5 months we'll bring along a 40 or 60 lbs sandbag that gets shared as team weight one or twice each week and seeking to keep to the standard.

As for running I'm not much of a runner and have only been doing it a couple of years. 10 minute miles have been completely sufficient for me.

So to see someone suggest that I need to be able to ruck faster than I normally run is disappointing.

We're going to do a 5k ruck run tomorrow night to establish a baseline. And then I'll keep working on my speed.

A 24 minute 2 mile is what I'm personally shooting for here.

[panzer0170]

Nov 11, 2014 15:06:33 GMT -5 norinco said:

I'll be honest. The MVT rucking PT test irks me. Mainly because while me and mine have been training to a standard we haven't been traning to THAT standard. 15/min mile pace with 40 lbs pack has been our standard whether 2 or 4 or 8 or 12 miles.

And for the past 5 months we'll bring along a 40 or 60 lbs sandbag that gets shared as team weight one or twice each week and seeking to keep to the standard.

As for running I'm not much of a runner and have only been doing it a couple of years. 10 minute miles have been completely sufficient for me.

So to see someone suggest that I need to be able to ruck faster than I normally run is disappointing.

We're going to do a 5k ruck run tomorrow night to establish a baseline. And then I'll keep working on my speed.

A 24 minute 2 mile is what I'm personally shooting for here.

Please, by no means, take this as me trying to say what you are doing is shit; Quite the contrary, I'm impressed.

My only thought would be this; If you can maintain a 15 minute mile pace for 12 miles, you can definitely do the 2 miles faster.  What distances are you running 10 minute miles at? If you're running 4-8 miles at that pace, you should be able to do a 2 miler at say 7-8 minute mile pace.

I think it's important, at least for the British tests, to distinguish;

ACFT1 is a BEST EFFORT event. If you are not blowing out of your hoop at the end, you aren't doing it right.

ACFT2 is something you should be able to consistently achieve.

Perhaps, for each of us, we need to set a true PB, and then aim off for something sustainable from there.

For me, right now, by PB for 2 miles is likely the limit - 18 minutes. I can maintain a steady 15 minute mile pace across rolling hills semi-indefinitely.

Things to take into account that people might not be;

If you live somewhere hilly, you're likely to be better at this as a matter of course.
If you live somewhere high altitude, you're going to struggle, but if you do this anywhere else, you're going to do well.
If you live somewhere flat and have hills nearby, training in those hills (even if you NEVER GO TO THEM IN WROL) is going to prepare you better for that flatland environment.

A final thought; I like that team weight. Chances are if you're going to end up in a true WROL situation you're going to have to carry/drag stuff around - Be that the deer you've just killed and skinned and thrown in a bag, casualties etc. This is definitely good training. But if you're maintaining that pace with an extra 70lbs thrown in, in quarterly rotations - You are fitter than you think you are

[Diz]

Norinco I like your approach, and I would tend to agree with you, and Mosby on this manner. I think if you guys can do 15 min/ miles for up 15 or 20 miles you're seriously GTG. Maybe push it on down to 12 min/ mile when required.

Panzer I'm glad you re-interated that fact that the 2-miler test, like MVT is suggesting, is an all-out effort. Versus a steady-state endurance march. So you essentially have two different standards here, one for "normal" ruck marches, one for "emergency" ones.

But at the end of the day, I think the "normal" or steady state endurance march has more value, overall, than some ball-buster just to prove you're a stud, or to earn some friggin patch. Yeah you could say both are required, or should be trained for, but then I would look at my particular sit and decide if one or both are required and go from there. I'm not doing this to imitate any military unit, or enter any competition.

[Hawkeye]

Personally, I think a 15 minute mile with ruck and gear is a good standard/baseline for a prepardness group. I truly think the standards are different for a preparedness group and a light infantry unit, as they should be. In fact, I think an argument could potentially be made that if you have to cover more than a mile on foot on a shtf situation, stealth may potentially be more important than overall speed.

[Diz]

As I'm reading through Mosby's hard copy, I was thinking that instead of just a 30 lb ruck what I really want to do is get a full combat load out on and see what's what. This MVT test is all well and good, but it's not a true measure of what I may be required to do. I want to see what rifle, 6 ready mags, BOK, radio, plus water, 3-6 more mags, energy food, clothing, batts, etc. actually feels like. Running with a true combat load out like this is going to tear up backs and knees, IMHO. Better to train in a quick march and shoot for 12-15 min/mile in my estimation.

This really gets to the heart of it though. All these posts on line about what my combat load out is, complete all these picutres are just essentially gear porn, IF you haven't gone out and done something similar to this to test yourself out. We get guys telling us all the time, "I want a rig to carry 12 AK mags", or 7.62 NATO, or even 5.56 NATO. We try and esplain to these guys why that might not be such a good idea, but this usually falls on deaf ears. Loaded 5.56 mags are roughly a lb each. 7.62 mags are nearly double that. If someone tells me he can carry 12-24 lbs of ammo, on top of all his other kit, you're either Mosby, or probably full of shit.

Yesterday I ran with a 31 lb ruck, which might have been a bit heavier than my normal assault pack. My fighting load out (chest rig plus belt kit) would probably add another 12-15 lbs, plus a 9 lb rifle. So all up you would have 45-50 lbs of gear, unless you lighten up the ruck a bit. There was a lot of snivel gear in there that should really be in the sustainment load out. So I would shoot for 40 lbs, all up.

But the point is, you need to know what you can really carry, versus all the chatter on line. So I applaud what "max" is doing here, I just happen to think that the testing protocol is flawed.

Bottom line, 40-45 lb complete load out, 6-8 mile ruck march, in 15 min/mile or less. That would be my testing standard.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Worked out this morning, then ran a mile on treadmill after workout. No gear, just workout clothes. Did a mile in 10 min. Running is not my thing, it used to be but I've gotten older. I don't train for fast as much as endurance and strength at this point. If I'm having to sprint/run a mile or two, well maybe like Hawkeye says, I should go stealth. If it's life or death, well maybe dropping some gear would be better. If your down, I'll pull your butt 40-50 yards to cover though as I train for that....

[USMC0331]

When do you see a prepper needing to run 2miles in full gear and pack?

Drop the pack!

Drop the belt if you are having to E&E.

No matter how much you modify the weight time requirements, it's still based on a UWG scenario not post collapse scenario.

[Diz]

Yeah and no. Hawkeye were just having this discussion this morning. I would say, yeah, near term as long as your homestead is viable, not really any requirement. And for E&E purposes? You bet, shit-can that stuff if you have to.

BUT...

If you ever have to E&E to a retreat location, then it comes into play. I might have 120 miles or so to reach a retreat location. Then it becomes critical.

METT-TC: Likely enemy courses of action.