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Post by USMC0331 on Nov 12, 2014 18:11:49 GMT -5
I guess I can't imagine needing the ability outside of UWG activity. I mean if I'm on foot going to a BOL, I'm dragging family members that will not be able to keep up at 1/2 that pace.
I mean for PT it's a nice "drill" but the practicality of it outside of UWG seems less than unlikely.
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Post by norinco on Nov 12, 2014 23:53:51 GMT -5
We're going to do a 5k ruck run tomorrow night to establish a baseline. And then I'll keep working on my speed. A 24 minute 2 mile is what I'm personally shooting for here. We did our 5k tonight. 40 pound ruck. Mile 1 in 12:07 Mile 2 in 25:17 Mile 3 was 38:40.
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Post by USMC0331 on Nov 13, 2014 1:44:41 GMT -5
norinco, can you give ages and conditions of your group to compare the numbers to? Was this an all out best effort or sustained run?
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Post by Diz on Nov 13, 2014 7:21:43 GMT -5
Damn you guys are studs. I am still sore from Tuesday's run.
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Post by Hawkeye on Nov 13, 2014 9:22:34 GMT -5
I did a 1 mile run yesterday afternoon with a 25-30 lb pack. 10:50 time. If I'd have had time, I could have done a second, but it probably would have been a 11-12 minute mile. I smoked it pretty hard on Tuesdays run & workout and was thus wasn't completely fresh.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 13, 2014 11:42:05 GMT -5
I guess I can't imagine needing the ability outside of UWG activity. I mean if I'm on foot going to a BOL, I'm dragging family members that will not be able to keep up at 1/2 that pace. I mean for PT it's a nice "drill" but the practicality of it outside of UWG seems less than unlikely. My logic is this; if I hear/spot/am told via radio/anything of that nature an enemy that is outside weapons range, if I can get 2 miles in at best effort pace, I can put a little more distance in. That 2 miles gives me a little bit of rest/preperation time (only a few minutes, at best) to sort my life out, before continuing at a sustained pace. For example; If come across an enemy and I'm ambushed (let us assume everyone else is dead, it's the most likely scenario for even a half-arsed ambush) when I clear that danger area I am going to want to put as much distance between me and the enemy as possible. Sure, I could drop my bag. My bag has my radio in it, which has my whole groups frequencies programmed in. It might have some supplies that I've gathered, or intelligence etc. I would suggest that I'm likely going to want to work out up to 10 miles (now this is VERY person specific - I'm thinking flat, middle of nowhere mid-west, YMMV!) away patrolling for food, as well as occasional extended patrols to make sure that you're not going to get flattened next week by someone roving through the area. You might only put one out a week, but the scenario exists, for me. So I'm going to keep all my gear. So I'm going to practise carrying it, and I'm going to practise carrying a little more than I have to do it in, because if I practise with more, when it comes to doing it for real, I can do it with less discomfort and effort. 'Train hard, fight easy.' My caveat would be this; Put together ALL of your gear, to self sustain for 3-4 days. Add 5-10kg (Lets call that deer meat, that you're scavenging) That's what you're looking at carrying, because you may well hit that contact on the 5 miles out on day one, by which time you'll probably only have had a litre or so of water because you've not gone all that far, and been walking for maybe an couple of hours (again - terrain dependant). For me, that makes these (weight) numbers quite realistic. Gear that lasts, GENERALLY, is heavier than gear that doesn't. It's also cheaper, and therefore, for me, more likely to be something I have.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 13, 2014 11:45:20 GMT -5
To add to that: On the risk/likelihood scale I'd say it's high risk if you come across dangerous people, and middle likelihood. So for me it's something that needs to be trained. It's also valuable carrying weight on your back to build you up in preperation for carrying a stretcher, which might be something you're likely to do if you have decent medical care. 2 miles with a stretcher and your gear is hard, and harder to train (need all the blokes to carry one, for a start!) It makes a 'fair' replacement for tasks like that.
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Post by Erick on Nov 16, 2014 18:35:16 GMT -5
Piss off mate, I'm 59 and can out-PT guys half my age! You know, this reminds me of my time with the rifle companies. The Company Gunny much less the First Sgt couldn't keep up with the young studs. These guys had 15-20 years in grade, with more time on the shitter than I had in the Corps. I could out-run them, no sleep, dead drunk, probably with a ruck on. But so what. I would have loved to have seen someone tell them they were no longer needed just cuz they couldn't meet some PT standard. Uh sorry Gunny, but you gotta go supervise the cooks cuz you're not good enough to run with the rifleman any more. Yeah right. This whole concept of everybody has to meet this standard or go play with the pups is a bit mis-guided. We strive to meet that standard, but at the end of the day, you fight with what you have. Besides, I know some older/overweight individuals that I'd rather have on the line beside me, rather than some PT stud, who may break and run. It's very important, but it ain't everything. I'm gonna run this sumbitch and find out just exactly how hard it is and report back. Quoted for both truth and insight!
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Post by Erick on Nov 16, 2014 18:39:47 GMT -5
PS: I suspect the reason its "only " 30 lbs is supposing the use of a light Combat backpack of say low 20ies of lbs plus your LBE.
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Post by USMC0331 on Nov 18, 2014 15:50:19 GMT -5
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Post by Erick on Nov 18, 2014 17:17:31 GMT -5
Hey USMC, hanks for trying it out w/ 2 shooters!!!! Actually the new standards closely mirror the DoS test that DoS does for its security contractors. As for the intent of the times let me explain my humble take on this subject.... the intent is to have the top 1/3rd of Militia/III%ers/Minutemen/dedicated civilian 1st defenders (whatever fuckign term you want to use) be able to meet those requirement. And the time limits have dropped to 40 seconds. They are NOT intended to only be attainable by active duty or recent seperated short or long tabber, 11 or 18 series. Those people dont need a MVT patch to prove competence.... what we want is to give the high average dude something to train for that is attainable if the "high Average" dude puts in time and effort. It has to be attainable by a pure .civ who is in good shape and shoots regularly and competently. This is the balance it must strike: It has to be realistic "gettable" with some effort by a competent .civ, but not so low that its meaningless. where is that balance? The 1st shooter in the vid above is using C grip which tells me he likely spends time in competition (or has spent time in a door kicker unit that gets showered w/tax payer ammo) and runs a magnified sight. He is clearly not the "high average" shooter but more like a high end shooter. MVT can't set up the standard so only truly advanced shooters can do it with expectation of passing. Magnified Optics for example are disallowed on a lot of courses like this. I doubt they will be disallowed at MVT... but using an ACOG and then taking half the time to do good hits ... well I dont know...how big a bragging right that is as I am sure some folks will show up with irons.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 18, 2014 17:40:20 GMT -5
A question, from watching usmc0331's video, that I haven't asked before but have seen elsewhere in videos; What is this odd thing with holding as far down the barrel as you can reach? That can't make a stable platform, surely? Basic physics says you stick a weight at the end of a length and the longer it is, the the easier it is to move (wobble?) and (my) experience shows holding things at arms length is harder than with a nice V-shape from the elbow. I can see how in a building, at CLOSE ranges it could be an advantage (1 - you can basically FEEL where the end of the rifle is, because your arm is there. That's going to add some spatial awareness even if you don't notice it. and 2) The whole fulcrum thing, and the longer it is the easier it is to move the rifle - But even then I have always been taught (and found it true) that if you want to move a rifle left/right then you move your SHOULDERS, and your whole upper body. I'm sure there is a reason people do this, but it seems (some) people are using it in long range shooting, and it seems counter-intuitive to me. Can some explain?
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Post by Erick on Nov 18, 2014 18:12:17 GMT -5
A question, from watching usmc0331's video, that I haven't asked before but have seen elsewhere in videos; What is this odd thing with holding as far down the barrel as you can reach? That can't make a stable platform, surely? Basic physics says you stick a weight at the end of a length and the longer it is, the the easier it is to move (wobble?) and (my) experience shows holding things at arms length is harder than with a nice V-shape from the elbow. I can see how in a building, at CLOSE ranges it could be an advantage (1 - you can basically FEEL where the end of the rifle is, because your arm is there. That's going to add some spatial awareness even if you don't notice it. and 2) The whole fulcrum thing, and the longer it is the easier it is to move the rifle - But even then I have always been taught (and found it true) that if you want to move a rifle left/right then you move your SHOULDERS, and your whole upper body. I'm sure there is a reason people do this, but it seems (some) people are using it in long range shooting, and it seems counter-intuitive to me. Can some explain? It's called C grip. it is (IMHO) a fad that came up via 2 groups: Door kickers for whom the ability to hose down a room was important (and for which C grip actually works well) and 3 gun competitiors for same reason. I played around with it and it DOES work well for a narrow set of applications (specifically shorter ranges) Basic Infantry work it does not IMHO, as it fatigues your muscles and gives less fine motor control. There is no way to patrol for a couple hours in C grip in a meaningful way. For .civs trying to learn shooting I always steer them away from it and more towards the 85% solution. But that being said it DOES have a role in room clearing. For those who dont get thier ammo and training time for free on the gov't tit, I always recommend to keep training one hold only, so they get competent at a 85% solution which cna be use of the VFG or AFG or old school flat hand. (I personally prefer VFG as my 85% solution, its suboptimal at 8 yards but keeping one configuration at all times has its advantages as well) But you will find some competent shooters use it for all sorts of applications, since they are used to it from 3 gunning or SWATing.
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Post by USMC0331 on Nov 18, 2014 18:38:26 GMT -5
I'm the first shooter, the 66yr old dude is a competent shooter who is not comfortable with his gear or pistol. I think the two of use showed where the balance of his standard times are good.
I have not seen any updates on MVTs forum since I drew up the drill a few weeks ago as I have not been on there.
It's called a "thumb over" grip and it works for more stability in most scenarios. You can see me switch grips in one of the runs and it cut the bounce down by half. Try it!
The C-grip is only useful against hard cover for "nailing" the gun to the edge barricade IME
I recently gave up the VDG because I've found that it gets in the way the more I shoot prone over objects.
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Post by USMC0331 on Nov 18, 2014 18:41:35 GMT -5
Oh, no bragging rights. The drill was shot at an easy pace and I was still at the 1/2 PAR time. I shot it in 1/4 the PAR on my first run doing 90% of my skill level and had ~10 just outside a 10" ring. A stud shooter could ace the drill in < 20sec And I pay for all my ammo, thank you
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