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Post by panzer0170 on Aug 30, 2014 9:56:47 GMT -5
My take? Every gun's trigger is different anyway. If you got a battlefield pickup AK you'd have to readjust to it anyway... I personally like a good trigger and have had work done on several of my firearms to improve the triggers. Not just for Unforseen to weigh in with, but I'm quoting him because he makes a valid point: How much does it actually affect shooting? Like if you were to list ALL the factors (real world stuff like windage etc, mechanical design, quality of trigger, length of barrel[which from what I gather, basically doesn't matter...certainly for 5.56]) where on the list is it? What's more important, and what's less important? Having only ever used mil triggers, mostly a bullpup isn't not something I've ever really considered - I could always make the shots out to 600m well, and with a good percent hit at 800... so long as I had a scope. Also; Is there a different priority at 0-100, 100-300 and 300+ ? Obviously a quality trigger doesn't matter as much at 5 yards as it does at a thousand, but what is most important? I think it'd be interesting to put ALL of these factors together in a list. I know that everything is situationally dependant, but I'd like to see an 'averaged' view, from everyones individual experience on what solidly 'rounds' a rifle, and what the important purchases are. I think for me, I'd be looking at a low power scope (ACOG or so) and beyond that just a whole heap of practise. (I don't specifiy trigger because I don't know enough about them, and I'd be working a bullpup, and their triggers are, apparently, 'bad' anyway. I've never had an issue with them, but I can see how they're worse than others...) So, go for it, what're everyones thoughts? (Sorry to hijack, but I think it's relevant!) |
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Aug 30, 2014 11:52:33 GMT -5
Yes, different triggers do matter at different distances. Obviously, all will work, some (like the super dynamic and other 'flat" triggers) are designed for a single stage to quickly point and shoot and then quickly reset in order to facilitate rapid close in engagements.
the SSA-E is more designed to help shoot better at a distance. it will work close up but two stages are unnecessary if you are shooting close in, in fact they hinder you. The stages in a two stage trigger are to allow the shooter to prep the trigger and take better control of exactly when that trigger will break.
1 stage triggers also have prep, but are quicker into a fight.
again, your are talking very small differences, but differences you CAN feel.
your bull pup triggers tend to be heavier and more like a 2-stage. you will definitely notice the difference in an AR trigger, of any kind.
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Post by panzer0170 on Aug 30, 2014 12:01:08 GMT -5
good info. what's the score with different springs for the gas system? is that just a recoil management strategy?
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Aug 30, 2014 12:08:49 GMT -5
down and dirty:
heavier spring + heavier buffer for carbine length gas system. It helps with "dwell time" which leads to more reliable extraction.
for a mid length, standard buffer tube weight, and standard spring weight seem to work best.
here are some great articles:
copy and paste isnt working for some reason, google "big M4 myth: fouling caused by direct impingement makes the M4 unreliable"
denny ducett and mike pannone write a lot about this topic.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Aug 30, 2014 13:15:19 GMT -5
down and dirty: heavier spring + heavier buffer for carbine length gas system. It helps with "dwell time" which leads to more reliable extraction. for a mid length, standard buffer tube weight, and standard spring weight seem to work best. here are some great articles: copy and paste isnt working for some reason, google "big M4 myth: fouling caused by direct impingement makes the M4 unreliable" denny ducett and mike pannone write a lot about this topic. I was going to start a thread here about that very article. It was fascinating. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Aug 30, 2014 14:04:53 GMT -5
down and dirty: heavier spring + heavier buffer for carbine length gas system. It helps with "dwell time" which leads to more reliable extraction. for a mid length, standard buffer tube weight, and standard spring weight seem to work best. here are some great articles: copy and paste isnt working for some reason, google "big M4 myth: fouling caused by direct impingement makes the M4 unreliable" denny ducett and mike pannone write a lot about this topic. I was going to start a thread here about that very article. It was fascinating. Perhaps you should, then we don't have to totally hijack USMCs original post?  |
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Post by USMC0331 on Aug 30, 2014 14:35:20 GMT -5
I don't consider it a hijack, all pertinent but a separate thread is good for finding it easier
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Aug 30, 2014 19:20:16 GMT -5
On it  |
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Post by Diz on Sept 1, 2014 8:08:35 GMT -5
Yeah I know I am old fashioned and set in my ways. But on my main battle rifle I want the standard trigger I've been shooting with since 1976. Yeah, yeah, I know, get a musket if you feel that way.
You guys are very right, hits count, faster hits count better. I get it. But I'm just not feeling it, with this over-emphasis on what I see as actions in the objective area. You can be the best gunfighter on the planet, but if you don't have the physical fitness, and the skill to land nav tactically, to even get to your objective, it's not doing you any good. Pulling the trigger is a very small part of the overall equation. I am concentrating on a lot of other things rather than shaving micro seconds off my lock-up time.
Honestly I just don't get it on this trigger thing. It seems a lot of folks are enamored with this idea of improving something that has frankly always been a non-issue with me. In field conditions, where I have done the vast majority of my training, I never found the stock trigger to be any kind of detriment. Granted my time was all bush time, I have very little experience in urban ops. But I see that as an advantage for me these days.
I guess in the end, it depends on what kind of gunfight you are preparing for. The kind our guys have been getting into lately may be better suited to an improved trigger. The question is, do you think that's your likely scenario. I plan on seriously trying to avoid any aspect of it.
So my vote is for stock trigger. Old saws 'n all.
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Post by USMC0331 on Sept 1, 2014 9:48:54 GMT -5
Do you still run irons only? Reliable, proven, been around since 1975 and does the job 99.99% of the time just a bit slower than a dot. Just saying... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Post by USMC0331 on Sept 1, 2014 9:49:05 GMT -5
Double tap
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Post by panzer0170 on Sept 1, 2014 10:56:59 GMT -5
Do you still run irons only? Reliable, proven, been around since 1975 and does the job 99.99% of the time just a bit slower than a dot. Just saying... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I know you're just pulling his leg, but I would suggest you get TWO optics, if you add a red dot. You do not get a back-up trigger. And of course - If you can't see it, you can't hit it. I've never used reflex/red dot stuff, but I have used lower power mag stuff (4-6x) and one advantage that a lot of people won't think about is this; I wear glasses. If they are fucked, forevermore, a low magnification scope will CORRECT my eyesight. People who think they're running contacts when the 'apocalypse' comes are kidding themselves, and glasses are fragile and easily lost (Ask me how I know...) |
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Sept 1, 2014 12:55:29 GMT -5
Diz,
you're right. stock triggers work pretty well. Just like a glock works pretty well. But once you land nav to the objective with your 50 pound pack and still have the physical fitness to fight, a nicer trigger just helps. its about how much you want to optimize your rifle.
If your goal is to have a couple of ARs that you can hand out/organize a fire team with, yea, don't spend money on upgrades. If you've got your one rifle to do it all, then I think a trigger becomes important.
For me, the two most important upgrades on the AR is a red dot and a trigger, in that order.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Sept 1, 2014 13:35:59 GMT -5
Do you still run irons only? Reliable, proven, been around since 1975 and does the job 99.99% of the time just a bit slower than a dot. Just saying... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Like panzer said, you're prob just yanking his chain. But, for my situation the red dot helps my aging eyes. Don't have a skin in the game of trigger choice as I've only used the stock trigger on my Daniel Defense. But I look at things a bit different then maybe others here. I look at things that will be a force multiplier to me. The red dot is for me with my aging eyes. I still have the BUIS. I don't believe a trigger upgrade is a force multiplier for me in my AO. I can hit what I need to with the stock trigger. If a trigger upgrade is a force multiplier for you, then by all means go for it. Let me try it when you get it and maybe I'll see it as a multiplier as well. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Sept 1, 2014 16:07:09 GMT -5
@patriotic Sheepdog - How does it help your eyes? Is it just because it's projected light that's easier to see, or is there some actual correction provided in the lens?
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