winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Nov 23, 2015 3:20:19 GMT -5
Some pretty defensive replies. LOL I'm not convinced the amount of training required for me to be proficient with this transition business is time well spent. As UnforseenWeather said, Rock On.
When I said "urban assault" I was stressing the assault part as much as the urban part. The assault part is what closes the ranges down to handgun range.
Panzer- What is this? " Come the fall of man in the civilised world, no one is going to care about money, but they're going to defend things like food to keep them alive quite violently... And that tends to be kept in buildings of one description or another."
Are you suggesting stealing other peoples shit for your survival?
It won't get too Mad Maxx around here. When Walmart runs out of supplies, it's gonna be a lot of fish for many locals until it gets sorted out.
I suspect we all plan for where we live and the people we live around.
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protus
Junior Member
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Post by protus on Nov 23, 2015 6:30:43 GMT -5
Ill add my hat to it ...lol .
My kit is a uw four cell minute man. Four mags..one in the rifle and two on my belt. For 7 total.(akm) normally its only six but can go seven. Plus two cats ..shears and izzy dressings.
On my belt is two pistol reloads as well and my sidearm(g17). Team would be small 1-4 people and honestly im one of those ..better to have it for X than not.(reason i carry four CATs and extra izzys as well.)
On this belt rides a tear away ifak .secondary CAT on my strong side and a saw pouch. this contains small EE kit items..gun cleaning kit.gloves.bandana.drag line thats already woven through the belt and attached via a climbing biener. Compass..water straw..water tablets.spare batts.bug net(face).camo face paint..bug juice and trip wire and audiable alarm.monocular. There is also a multitool and g81 knife on the belt along with flash light. Depending on style/length of mission i carry either a basic camelback carrier with led ..water tabs..mylar blanket..550 cord ..cliff bar in the lil zipper pouch. If not a single 6-10 hour patrol 4-6 miles. Ill run a cbak mule with extras from comms..reloads..extra food..water filter..wet weather gear (cold temps i use a bigger pack for the bulk) etc.
Thats my base gear. No optics on the akm (future purchase). Location is rural to semi rural. Foilage is dense from rainforest like to thick scrub. Ranges can go from 5 yards to 150 ..with longer on roads or cattle/farm areas. Main mission goals would be recon/defense property and immediate area(2-5 mile circle)patrols.
No ballistics here. Basic soft armor/kpot is the extent of it.weight and weather is the reason why. Im not 18 and lugging 30+extra in armor aint happening when its 98 and 99% humidty!lol
But ..i do belive in it for static or missions that would require it(raid/rescue/lear). So its not off the list just not on top.
Nvg/nods- Wish i could have it.$$$$ isnt there yet. I relocated out of the urban shit and that blew my wad on big items. It would be VERY benifical in my AO.its my one big ticket item i wish i had.
Guess thats a lil or both what and why. But my gears been evolving the last three years since my move...i was ammo heavy when i lived in the city....
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Post by hudson5969 on Nov 23, 2015 10:55:54 GMT -5
Even if you live in the wild, there's plenty of chances for people to flank you while you are busy, and jump you at the wrong moment.
You home may get hit by multiples.
There's all kinds of scenarios where close-quarters battle is a real possibility, urban or not.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 11:23:42 GMT -5
Some pretty defensive replies. LOL I'm not convinced the amount of training required for me to be proficient with this transition business is time well spent. Depends how you set up, but fair enough. As UnforseenWeather said, Rock On. When I said "urban assault" I was stressing the assault part as much as the urban part. The assault part is what closes the ranges down to handgun range. Panzer- What is this? " Come the fall of man in the civilised world, no one is going to care about money, but they're going to defend things like food to keep them alive quite violently... And that tends to be kept in buildings of one description or another." Are you suggesting stealing other peoples shit for your survival? For my survival? Absofuckinglutely. As a matter of course? No. Are other people going to steal as a matter of course? Yep. As it stands right now if it were me vs any one single member of Joe public and I couldn't convince them to work for our mutual benefit, I would make sure I survived regardless of what happened to them. If locally people are crazy, you have to assume and prepare for crazy. It won't get too Mad Maxx around here. When Walmart runs out of supplies, it's gonna be a lot of fish for many locals until it gets sorted out. And that's the difference. Where I am right now in the next 10 acres there are upwards of...200 people. If I owned the property I want and can afford in MN, in 75 acres there would be no one but me and mine. Population density has a massive effect. The property I'm looking at has the Minnesota River on one border and bumfuck nothing on the other 3, outside a small town of approx 500 people. That's double the number of people on my street in a whole town, which is a much nicer number and far more likely to get you some help, rather than hostility. But the reality is right now I live between two very dense urban areas, and my initial move to the US is probably going to include me moving to dense urban areas, so that's my focus.I suspect we all plan for where we live and the people we live around. Indeed we do. That is why people keep adding reasons to their 'defense' for doing what they do. Not because they're defensive, but to try and explain. I totally get why Erick isn't going to carry a pistol as a matter of course. I'd rather be setup for the pistol in general and just take it out of the holster, but as we can all agree YMMV.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 11:36:02 GMT -5
Ill add my hat What is the hat for? to it ...lol . My kit is a uw four cell minute man. Four mags..one in the rifle and two on my belt. For 7 total.(akm) normally its only six but can go seven. Plus two cats ..shears and izzy dressings. On my belt is two pistol reloads as well and my sidearm(g17). Team would be small 1-4 people and honestly im one of those ..better to have it for X than not.(reason i carry four CATs Serious question; Why 4? Without an evac chain if you need more than 1 you're probably fucked. I think even 3 is probably overkill, but then I don't know your reasoning. Please explain. and extra izzys as well.) On this belt rides a tear away ifak To be clear are we talking catastrophic, or general first aid? .secondary CAT on my strong side and a saw pouch. this contains small EE kit items..gun cleaning kit.gloves.bandana.drag line thats already woven through the belt and attached via a climbing biener. Compass..water straw..water tablets.spare batts.bug net(face).camo face paint..bug juice and trip wire and audiable alarm Rape Alarm connected to a tripwire? I like it. How to you make sure it stays silenced out of interest?.monocular. There is also a multitool and g81 knife on the belt along with flash light. Depending on style/length of mission i carry either a basic camelback carrier with led ..water tabs..mylar blanket..550 cord ..cliff bar in the lil zipper pouch. If not a single 6-10 hour patrol 4-6 miles. Ill run a cbak mule with extras from comms..reloads..extra food..water filter..wet weather gear (cold temps i use a bigger pack for the bulk) etc. I'm going to add this here, but it's a general observation: I reckon the camelbak is one of the most overrated tools taken out of context known to man. You can boil water for multiple purposes (sterilise, cook with, get some warmth inside you and raise core temps etc) but so many folk seem to have left out something like a simple metal water bottle that they can put direct over a flame. For anyone who has chosen to do this; Why? You can get a cheap, relatively lightweight steel bottle for like $10 that will last you a lifetime. It doesn't have to have water in it when you carry it, remember You might even use it as a container for survival gear, as it becomes another part of that survival gear IF things go buggery.Thats my base gear. No optics on the akm (future purchase). Location is rural to semi rural. Foilage is dense from rainforest like to thick scrub. Ranges can go from 5 yards to 150 ..with longer on roads or cattle/farm areas. Main mission goals would be recon/defense property and immediate area(2-5 mile circle)patrols. No ballistics here. Basic soft armor Why soft armour? Why not ditch it all together or uparmour? I get the reason not to uparmour, but I think I'm either carrying it or not, personally.../kpot is the extent of it.weight and weather is the reason why. Im not 18 and lugging 30+extra in armor aint happening when its 98 and 99% humidty!lol But ..i do belive in it for static or missions that would require it(raid/rescue/lear). So its not off the list just not on top. Nvg/nods- Wish i could have it.$$$$ isnt there yet. I relocated out of the urban shit and that blew my wad on big items. It would be VERY benifical in my AO.its my one big ticket item i wish i had. Guess thats a lil or both what and why. But my gears been evolving the last three years since my move...i was ammo heavy when i lived in the city.... More targets
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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What, Why?
Nov 23, 2015 15:22:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by protus on Nov 23, 2015 15:22:20 GMT -5
Pz on my phone so ill try to hit it all.
Cats. One for each extrimity ..or buddy aid. Plus I carry them on strong and weak sides. No good to me if its one CAT on the side that ain't working (granted thats with arm wounds) . Tear away is a typical bok. Cat..Izzy compressed gauze..chest seals..clamps..decomp needles...gloves..ops/now's etc etc.
As to soft armor ...I came into it in trade. Eventually ill get into a cheap plate set .
Hudson..dunno if that was directed at me. But I'm under no impression that it'll be easier here. However ...-+2k population vs 150k...ill take the 2k. Defense in layers from distance to urban areas to retain to fences...dog etc...again. Not perfect..and I'm of the mindset there's always a way in...so I.look at everything through that perspective. Problem is income...I spent a bunch getting debt free...relocating etc. Typical survivalist mantra. Now its buy 350$ in plates or 350$ for a manual well pump or 150 gallon water tote.... Priorities changed going this route.
Pz old rig was 6 on the vest ..1 in rifle..sidearm...two reloads and 3 mags and 100 rounds extra in the pack. In the ducks I use for anything outside that 8-12 hour frame a stainless cup and nalgene gets shoved in along with a triox stove and four fuel bars.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Nov 23, 2015 15:48:26 GMT -5
Even if you live in the wild, there's plenty of chances for people to flank you while you are busy, and jump you at the wrong moment. You home may get hit by multiples. There's all kinds of scenarios where close-quarters battle is a real possibility, urban or not. I don't live in the wild. I live around armed, 17% veteran, responsible, conservatives on a huge island in SE Alaska. About 12,000 people live on the island on a 38 mile road with no access from the mainland. The main town has it's share of the criminal element, but they won't last long WROL and, frankly, ROL will never really go away short of foreign invasion. Panzer, If you think it's ok to murder and steal to offset your lack of preparation, than you are a murderer and a thief now. "Other people are going to do it."; is not a positive defense. You will die, and rightly so, trying to steal peoples shit. I think you are just talking shit. I'll await your statement about me being naive and "will you watch your children starve?" bullshit.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Nov 23, 2015 16:14:16 GMT -5
Panzer...
Can you elaborate?
It reads like if you saw that someone had stuff and you couldn't convince them to work with you, that you'd pretty much ... take their stuff. (Bad things occurring in the ellipses there...)
That's not exactly what we're about here.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 16:35:56 GMT -5
Even if you live in the wild, there's plenty of chances for people to flank you while you are busy, and jump you at the wrong moment. You home may get hit by multiples. There's all kinds of scenarios where close-quarters battle is a real possibility, urban or not. I don't live in the wild. I live around armed, 17% veteran, responsible, conservatives on a huge island in SE Alaska. About 12,000 people live on the island on a 38 mile road with no access from the mainland. The main town has it's share of the criminal element, but they won't last long WROL and, frankly, ROL will never really go away short of foreign invasion. Panzer, If you think it's ok to murder and steal to offset your lack of preparation, than you are a murderer and a thief now. "Other people are going to do it."; is not a positive defense. You will die, and rightly so, trying to steal peoples shit. I think you are just talking shit. I'll await your statement about me being naive and "will you watch your children starve?" bullshit. Wow. Yeah. Definitely said murder. There's one thing do discuss and debate but it's another altogether to start personal attacks based on something you've taken personal offence to (I can only assume).
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Post by Erick on Nov 23, 2015 16:42:32 GMT -5
Wow, this thread has had some energy! Good thing we started it...
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Nov 23, 2015 16:50:58 GMT -5
I don't live in the wild. I live around armed, 17% veteran, responsible, conservatives on a huge island in SE Alaska. About 12,000 people live on the island on a 38 mile road with no access from the mainland. The main town has it's share of the criminal element, but they won't last long WROL and, frankly, ROL will never really go away short of foreign invasion. Panzer, If you think it's ok to murder and steal to offset your lack of preparation, than you are a murderer and a thief now. "Other people are going to do it."; is not a positive defense. You will die, and rightly so, trying to steal peoples shit. I think you are just talking shit. I'll await your statement about me being naive and "will you watch your children starve?" bullshit. Wow. Yeah. Definitely said murder. There's one thing do discuss and debate but it's another altogether to start personal attacks based on something you've taken personal offence to (I can only assume). I must have confused your saying you would attack defended areas to steal their stuff so you can survive as "murder and thievery". Oh, wait, that is murder and thievery.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 16:54:10 GMT -5
Panzer... Can you elaborate? It reads like if you saw that someone had stuff and you couldn't convince them to work with you, that you'd pretty much ... take their stuff. (Bad things occurring in the ellipses there...) That's not exactly what we're about here. Perhaps it reads poorly, but I'm not sure it's something I can articulate well. Let me try, though. And thankyou for the sensible non-confrontational response. First sentence; Steal for my survival? If I am so fucked up and out of food, and I find myself in a location where there is food, and it is not under guard/there are not big signs saying 'property of X' and I haven't eaten in days because of X reason (I'm not going to give one, it's not important. It might be my mistake, it might be other circumstances...) I am going to have some of what is going free. Anyone who suggests they would, whilst actually starving (not just being hungry...) sit next to a pile of food and starve to death has fantastic constitution and I urge you to try it. How many days can you go without food, knowing you have access to it in the house, or at a takeaway place? Sure, you're going to pay for it in the experiment now, but if you are STARVING you're going to need, not want, food. Second sentence: As a matter of course I believe that I am above stealing on a personal level, but I'm not going to rule it out because I have never been put in that situation. I'd like to think I wouldn't, but the proof is in the pudding, not in what I say I would and wouldn't do. I am going to consider it as an option for emergency situations but aim where possible to actually go out of my way to help folk. Civilisation exists because people stopped hitting each other with rocks and started digging together, collectiong together, and hunting together etc. Third sentence: People will steal, and that will be plan from the get go. See: Looting. Fourth sentence, perhaps poorly worded and controversial sounding: If I cannot get them to help me, or if I cannot help them, to our MUTUAL gain, then I am not going to become part of their area of influence, where possible. However, if they DO have hostile intentions of any kind, I will defend myself as is my (and everyones) 'God' or 'Humanity' or 'big higher power of your choice's' right. Consider; There are armed looters going round taking pot shots and robbing folk. You come across one. Chances are you'll defend yourself. With any luck you'll win. You're not going to leave the food, fuel & general resources with them. You are going to use their loss (their own fault) to your gain. I think perhaps there might be some bravado amongst us all, myself included, about how we would be perfect humans and do the 'right' thing every time. There isn't always a right choice. Sometimes there is a better choice, but 'better' is subjective. Anyone who is willing to kill a man in self defence should understand this; Killing is never a good thing. I don't think anyone who has ever killed in self defence has celebrated it. They may have been happy to be alive, but not happy to have killed. However we can all agree that there are justifiable reasons to kill. Self defence ( self preservation) being one. If we can justify killing, what else can we justify? Given an appropriate set of circumstances. I'm not saying it's the 'right' choice. I'm just aware that people survive, especially people with strong wills.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 16:55:56 GMT -5
Wow. Yeah. Definitely said murder. There's one thing do discuss and debate but it's another altogether to start personal attacks based on something you've taken personal offence to (I can only assume). I must have confused your saying you would attack defended areas to steal their stuff so you can survive as "murder and thievery". Oh, wait, that is murder and thievery. Please pull your head out of your arse, and find where in your own comment it says defended, or attack and where I condoned attacking someone elses defended position? Oh right, I didn't. Grow up.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Nov 23, 2015 17:07:40 GMT -5
Then I'd need a hat.
You said this; "Even for those of you living in the 'wild' as it were; As it stands the majority of resources that you're going to have available to you unless your hunting skills are top notch and you are in a food rich environment (and if you are, then good...) are going to be stored in buildings of some kind. Come the fall of man in the civilised world, no one is going to care about money, but they're going to defend things like food to keep them alive quite violently... And that tends to be kept in buildings of one description or another."
You are saying I need a handgun to steal peoples things from their defended area. Correct me if that is not exactly what you implied. It's not much of a reach to assume that you telling me what you think I need to attack others to steal their stuff as you condoning and planning for that.
My apologies if I'm mistaken.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 17:15:41 GMT -5
Then I'd need a hat. You said this; "Even for those of you living in the 'wild' as it were; As it stands the majority of resources that you're going to have available to you unless your hunting skills are top notch and you are in a food rich environment (and if you are, then good...) are going to be stored in buildings of some kind. Come the fall of man in the civilised world, no one is going to care about money, but they're going to defend things like food to keep them alive quite violently... And that tends to be kept in buildings of one description or another." You are saying I need a handgun to steal peoples things from their defended area. Correct me if that is not exactly what you implied. It's not much of a reach to assume that you telling me what you think I need to attack others to steal their stuff as you condoning and planning for that. My apologies if I'm mistaken. Then perhaps we have crossed wires. My suggestion is that, in a populous area resources are going to be stored in an urban setting. Lets assume something similar to Katrina. Loads of folk have left, you want some clean water, and you see a Walmart. You go for the Walmart (rather than someones home) because it's likely to have decent quantity of stuff, and you're not taking from an individual. Turns out someone has gotten there first, and they're going to defend it pre-emptively because that's where they've chosen to hole up and now they're protecting their own. Neither you nor they necessarily have a hostile intent. But unless they're willing to let you walk up to the door to have that conversation (and they might be, but they might not be) you are now in a firefight. In an urban area, with plenty of potential for close quarter combat of one form or another, and an actively engaged opponent (not going to suggest they're an enemy, they're not necessarily bad people...) you might want that handgun if someone flanks you, or if your firearm goes down, or, or or. In your instance you appear to live in a pretty squared away area where you're going to likely carry on with some semblance of normalcy. Others may not. I am going to consider the worst case (urban, no resources, come under attack) because it has potential to happen. Hopefully my plan remains a plan. I'll apologise too, I dislike being called a murderer when I'm not, though I see how I wasn't as clear as I could be.
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