|
Post by panzer0170 on Nov 22, 2015 12:57:47 GMT -5
I am simple. This is a continuation/renewal of the conversation under the HRCC video link. It's in training rather than gear, because the focus of the thread is WHY, not what. Great, you carry a pistol; Why? Great, you only have 4 magazines; Why? May as well make this a FULL rundown of any gear, and the 'why' will answer the questions as to why people are, fo example, including NVGs in their list - We know, naturally, that we wouldn't necessarily carry them in a bag to work, but why do we OWN them. Where in your ConOps do they fit, and WHY? Keep asking yourself, and each other, 'So What?' for every answer you get. Eventually we'll get something sensible out of all of us, together
|
|
|
Post by hudson5969 on Nov 22, 2015 13:25:13 GMT -5
Pistol: I carry a pistol in the non Zompocalypse because it's too hard to conceal a rifle, and rifles are too damn heavy. It's too hot to wear a trenchcoat, and despite what some people think, carrying around a tennis racket bag in Bed, Bath and Beyond makes you stick out. In reality, I'm not likely to need it at all, if I do, it's likely a situation of facing a few crimi9nals, and generally a pistol will be more than enough, often never even have to fire it. Normally one spare magazine. Most likely won't have to reload, but magazine problems are the main reason for a pistol to be knackered. If I do have to shoot I like to be able to top off. More are kept in the vehicle, and I may add more if I have to get out in a not-so great place.
In the Zompocalypse, maybe not needed in a general patrol, but still maybe......you know what? Yeah, I'm going to carry it.
Transitions beat rifle reloads. If the rifle goes down, I'm a non-participant until I get it up and running, and with a small number of people (or alone), that may take too long. If I can't fix it, (say the receiver takes a hit), I'm out of the fight for the duration, unless the bad guys see I'm unarmed and throw down their rifles to fight hand-to-hand like I'm in a Transporter movie.
If I have to do the proverbial unassing of gear, I can still have a pistol and reload or two on the belt. At least it's something.
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Nov 22, 2015 13:43:32 GMT -5
My standard rig: I wear a Chest rig w/ 6 Mags and one in the pipe. On this rig in the back is a camelback for water and a buttback with extra socks underwear t shirt, a protein bar and a gun cleaning kit. 1 Knife. First aid kit, compass, maps, bug spray, camo paint, penlight elsewhere on the rig. If night ops are anticipated I wear a ballistic FAST helmet w/ mount and a PVS14 on the belt and the rifle will have a IR light and a DBAL. Depending on mission I may have an extra non ready 2 mags on me as well.
My primary will be a Sig516 or LWRC with EOtech and/or AimPoint Pro depending on which rifle I carry that day. Aimpoint for Night Ops.
No Pistol, as I anticipate walking everywhere in hilly terrain (my AO) and for the last 25,000 rounds I have never had a failure in my primary that couldnt be fixed by TAPRACKBANG. And even those were very very rare, even with steel ammo.
I rather save the weigh for extra mags to support my primary or extra water to support my body. Those 2 will have greater utility 99.99% of the time for me. Equipping a rig is a matter of compromises and balancing and accepting risk. Is ahandgun useful? Sure! Could it save your life absolutely! But when I balance risk/benefit the ammo and/or water displaced by the pistol will be more likely to make me effective.
By the time carrying a handgun would have saved my life... I will have likely had it saved multiple times over by the extra ammo or water. Whats more likely? a catastrophic failure of your primary or running out of ammo???
In the GWOT the big mil is usually vehicle borne and extra ammo and water are easier to come by, especially in the occupation role and very very short range surprises where a pistol may actually have some utulity are much more part and parcel of your operation.
No armor for the same reason no helmet for the same reason unless its Night Ops. Non ballistic bump helmet for urban OPS is in stock and might come out for urban ops.
No ballistic helmet. Why?: the weight penalty and lessened situational awareness is toxic IMO. Helmets are issued to the military for indirect fire threat. In the absence of indirect fire I see limited utility. Also keep in my its limited "ballistic" protection: Basically we are looking at being handgun proof only... sooo from the front it will not do me much good as my face is open. And if someone with handgun sneaks up on me from the rear they have a lot of other places to shoot.. And if its a rifle it wont matter anyway since it will go thru like butter
With the improved situational awareness of not wearing a helmet the chances of missing a guy are diminished. Thats key right there and much more important than the dubious utility . Very different form big mil, where indirect fire is a real threat or an urban occupying force is constantly surrounded by folks who could whip out a handgun and give you a head shot from the rear. No Armor. Until perhaps I get that real light new ceramix 3+ armor that just came out. Otherwise the penalties outweigh the utilities in my AO (all movement on foot in hilly terrain) no matter how good a shape you are in.
My Static defense/retreat Checkpoint/Going into a hot house to crush some MZBs is: Plate carrier with Level 4 plates. 6 Mags on the rig one in the pipe... no water on the rig. As its either right next to me at the Checkpoint/in the house or if I am in an entry I will either win or lose so quickly I will streamline the kit. Possibly Ballistic helmet
My Scavenging rig: a UW gear rig with 4 mags+1 in the pipe. The rifle will be a LW BCM. Land nav gear on me. And maybe water thats it,... as physical carry work is expected.
PS: This is for a full blown WROL tactical environment. If any ROL remains and concealability is an issue of course the loadout will be different and involve pistols ( of which I own many)
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Nov 22, 2015 15:46:08 GMT -5
Prepare for pain in the arse questions!My standard rig:I wear a Chest rig w/ 6 Mags Why 6+1?and one in the pipe. On this rig in the back is a camelback Why not bottles? for water and a buttback with extra socks underwear t shirt What time frame, if you have this gear on you, is this for?, a protein bar and a gun cleaning kit. 1 Knife Tool, weapon?. First aid kit, compass, maps, bug spray, camo paint, penlight elsewhere on the rig. If night ops are anticipated I wear a ballistic Did a nice man pay for your ballistic helmet, or did you shell out for it yourself? If so, why did you decide for ballistic given your later comments? FAST helmet w/ mount and a PVS14 on the belt and the rifle will have a IR light and a DBAL. Depending on mission I may have an extra non ready 2 mags on me as well. My primary will be a Sig516 or LWRC with EOtech and/or AimPoint Pro depending on which rifle I carry that day. Aimpoint for Night Ops. Any reason it's not all aimpoint for commonality/ability to go night-time?No Pistol, as I anticipate walking everywhere in hilly terrain (my AO) and for the last 25,000 rounds I have never had a failure in my primary that couldnt be fixed by TAPRACKBANG. And even those were very very rare, even with steel ammo. I get this, but don't agree I rather save the weigh for extra mags to support my primary or extra water to support my body. How much water is beneficial before it's weight becomes more of an issue than a help? What other methods do you have of getting water, or is it pure 'what I have on me' available to you?Those 2 will have greater utility 99.99% of the time for me. Equipping a rig is a matter of compromises and balancing and accepting risk. Is ahandgun useful? Sure! Could it save your life absolutely! But when I balance risk/benefit the ammo and/or water displaced by the pistol will be more likely to make me effective. By the time carrying a handgun would have saved my life... I will have likely had it saved multiple times over by the extra ammo or water. Whats more likely? a catastrophic failure of your primary or running out of ammo??? See Hudsons point on change weapon over change magazine. But I totally get and I'm not going to argue against this choice.In the GWOT the big mil is usually vehicle borne and extra ammo To be fair, even with all that to hand, they STILL carry ammo heavy because of the short distances they are operating over, in most cases.and water are easier to come by, especially in the occupation role and very very short range surprises where a pistol may actually have some utulity are much more part and parcel of your operation. No armor for the same reason no helmet for the same reason unless its Night Ops. Non ballistic bump helmet for urban OPS is in stock and might come out for urban ops. No ballistic helmet. Why?: the weight penalty and lessened situational awareness is toxic IMO. Helmets are issued to the military for indirect fire threat. Yup. I would want a bump helmet for most scenarios, but something high cut like a PT-Bravo halfshell. Mostly that's because I'm clumsy, and it gives me a platform for camouflage, NV etc...In the absence of indirect fire I see limited utility. Also keep in my its limited "ballistic" protection: Basically we are looking at being handgun proof only Yeah. Even if pistol threat was an issue I wouldn't wear a helmet for it.... sooo from the front it will not do me much good as my face is open. And if someone with handgun sneaks up on me from the rear they have a lot of other places to shoot.. And if its a rifle it wont matter anyway since it will go thru like butter With the improved situational awareness of not wearing a helmet the chances of missing a guy are diminished. Thats key right there and much more important than the dubious utility . Very different form big mil, where indirect fire is a real threat friendly IDF even moreso, in real nasty fights!or an urban occupying force is constantly surrounded by folks who could whip out a handgun and give you a head shot from the rear. No Armor. Until perhaps I get that real light new ceramix 3+ armor that just came out. Otherwise the penalties outweigh the utilities in my AO (all movement on foot in hilly terrain) no matter how good a shape you are in. 6lbs is the figure I'm hearing for L3(maybe 3+, not sure) for an AR500 Micro Plate Carrier with UHMPWHEPEWEWE plates. For ~3kg I feel like this is a valid option, because you don't HAVE to wear the thing... (assuming belt or seperate chest mounted magazines...)My Static defense/retreat Checkpoint/Going into a hot house to crush some MZBs is: Plate carrier with Level 4 plates. 6 Mags on the rig one in the pipe... no water on the rig. As its either right next to me at the Checkpoint/in the house or if I am in an entry I will either win or lose so quickly I will streamline the kit. Possibly Ballistic helmet My Scavenging rig: a UW gear rig with 4 mags+1 in the pipe. The rifle will be a LW BCM. Land nav gear on me. And maybe water thats it,... as physical carry work is expected. PS: This is for a full blown WROL tactical environment. If any ROL remains and concealability is an issue of course the loadout will be different and involve pistols ( of which I own many)
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Nov 22, 2015 16:14:44 GMT -5
Panzer: - 6 +1 because its the original army Combat load (I know, I know thats dogmatic) Less seems to little (unless I am going into a specific scavenging run where carry is important) and more may seem to much if i am not out actively looking to attack. - Why not bottles? Because I can mount the camelback armorback on the back of this rig and it fits great and is already sorted. Also this way everything is on or connected to my rig w/o the use of a belt. I will shortly get a MVT Versa rig in the mail and there I will likely add bottles on my belt. - Time frame is a less than 1 day mission - Reason its not Aimpoint PRO on all my rifles: The EOtech even tho slightly less robust (Even though I never had an issue with it in the past 2 years of frequent multiday use) But as a pure SIGHT it does work better/faster.. yes the AIMpoint is ,more robust and has some extra practical features the EOtech lacks, but if I am by myself or in a very small team my rifle is 100% of my firepower and it needs to have the very fastes target acquisition possible as I struggle for fire superioty. If I was equipping an Army I might chose the Aimpoint where much (most) of the firepower comes our of the SAW/GPMG/Fire Support. But for us I need the absolute best performing sight from a performance perspective. On my cache guns and on my NightRifle considerations are differently nuanced and hence they wear Aimpoints. -I have straw filters and would p[ack them for a multiday mission. Panzer, hope I answered your questions.
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Nov 22, 2015 16:26:49 GMT -5
Panzer: - 6 +1 because its the original army Combat load (I know, I know thats dogmatic I like the idea of 8 'available' magazines, but I'm not sold you actually NEED eight. I think 4 (3+1) is a minimum, though.) Less seems to little (unless I am going into a specific scavenging run where carry is important) and more may seem to much if i am not out actively looking to attack. - Why not bottles? Because I can mount the camelback armorback on the back of this rig and it fits great and is already sorted. Also this way everything is on or connected to my rig w/o the use of a belt. I will shortly get a MVT Versa rig in the mail and there I will likely add bottles on my belt. I am a belt guy. Any chest rig existance is a pure ammo carrier for me.- Time frame is a less than 1 day mission For less than a day, why a change of socks/T/undies? Not worth it IMO but I'm curious as to your reasoning. I might learn something.- Reason its not Aimpoint PRO on all my rifles: The EOtech even tho slightly less robust (Even though I never had an issue with it in the past 2 years of frequent multiday use) But as a pure SIGHT it does work better/faster.. yes the AIMpoint is ,more robust and has some extra practical features the EOtech lacks, but if I am by myself or in a very small team my rifle is 100% of my firepower and it needs to have the very fastes target acquisition possible as I struggle for fire superioty. If I was equipping an Army I might chose the Aimpoint where much (most) of the firepower comes our of the SAW/GPMG/Fire Support. But for us I need the absolute best performing sight from a performance perspective. On my cache guns and on my NightRifle considerations are differently nuanced and hence they wear Aimpoints. Valid. I'm a tight fucker. My plan is to get my hands on as many toys as possible and then get 2-3 of one specific sight. Though to be fair, I am a MASSIVE fan of the ELCAN Spectre DR, less it's price tag... But you can't get quality cheap, not when glass is involved...-I have straw filters and would p[ack them for a multiday mission. I'd be tempted to carry less water than a camelbak AND the straw. I carry 2L in the hills hiking in a steel bottle that I can use over a fire to kill bacteria & add tabs. I think Water, if you're outside of the desert, is one of the BIG areas you can save weight on, if you know your AO...Panzer, hope I answered your questions. I'm not done yet Just gonna keep asking questions till I run out, but thanks for the answers so far. Trying to make it as helpful for all as possible. When I've got time to sit and go through what I have/what I want and why, I'll throw mine up and you can pester me!
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Nov 22, 2015 16:36:27 GMT -5
The spare uw and socks are in case I cross a stream and need ot dry out especially if its cold. Also what is something happens and the mission lenghtens by 50%? The stuff is so light there is little harm in carrying it IMO.
Also it serves as a buffer if I land on my behind
|
|
winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
|
Post by winter on Nov 22, 2015 18:49:40 GMT -5
Transitions beat rifle reloads. Ok, folks often say this. But why in the world would I transition to a pistol if pistols are for getting to a rifle and keeping the rifle in action takes half a second more?
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Nov 22, 2015 19:02:20 GMT -5
And thats IF it takes longer to reload the rifle. Dont forget folks you are not set up as perfect for transtion as on the square range where your rifle falls down freely and its easy to pull the pistol.
And in the end even if may, and I do mean may, get to the pistol faster than to the rifle reload you're still only holding a handgun compared to the much greater firepower a rifle provides.
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Nov 22, 2015 19:31:21 GMT -5
Transitions beat rifle reloads. Ok, folks often say this. But why in the world would I transition to a pistol if pistols are for getting to a rifle and keeping the rifle in action takes half a second more? I wouldn't say that's the only reason. I can also think of two, anecdotal, examples where friends have engaged a threat in an urban environment from a different angle to that which they were facing AS a magazine change came around. One of them never fired because he had a buddy coming through who took care of his issue. The other guy is probably with us because he carried lefty and didn't even transition as such - he picked the pistol up and fired as he dropped the magazine. Cleared the threat and dropped the pistol, completed his reload and then took a moment whilst his buddies ran through and cleared further. And the reason you transition to a pistol if it's half a second faster is the same reason you'd throw a magazine away rather than retain. If you're in cover, you retain (assuming you don't have a buddy to cover) If you're not, you damn well change mag as fast as you can. If you've got a guy at 'inside' distances and your rifle is out of commision for however brief a period, you want something that will go bang NOW. Sort out a reload in a minute. You don't even have to retain the pistol, really. Treat it like a throwaway reload in the moment if needs be. The point is without the tool there to use, you will never have the option. Imagine if you had to throw away every magazine you used, at risk of never getting it back. How many magazines would you carry? How would that change your operating style for anything but home defence?
|
|
winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
|
Post by winter on Nov 22, 2015 20:05:43 GMT -5
Seems more suited to urban assault ops which are not really part of my AC plan.
Panzer-"Imagine if you had to throw away every magazine you used, at risk of never getting it back. How many magazines would you carry? How would that change your operating style for anything but home defence?"
I would not carry any additional mags because I don't carry loose ammo to load into mags. There's no sense carrying any ammo that is not in a magazine.
|
|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Nov 22, 2015 20:53:21 GMT -5
Transitions beat rifle reloads. Ok, folks often say this. But why in the world would I transition to a pistol if pistols are for getting to a rifle and keeping the rifle in action takes half a second more? Because you're playing the odds. Some of us don't like playing the odds is all. Having two weapons systems on your person doubles your ability to solve problems. Kitschy phrases aren't going to save you if you need a gun and your primary goes down!
|
|
|
Post by hudson5969 on Nov 22, 2015 22:43:42 GMT -5
Transitions beat rifle reloads. Ok, folks often say this. But why in the world would I transition to a pistol if pistols are for getting to a rifle and keeping the rifle in action takes half a second more? Panzer explained it pretty well. Scenario is you have a threat within pistol range, and it will take longer to get behind cover than to reload or draw a pistol (don't get distracted with how, someone flanked you, whatever, you're in the situation. Which is faster? Drawing the pistol. Don't think that just because you aren't planning on an urban fight that someone can't flank you unseen (in a fight no less) and tries to pull a Blackhawk Down "Wait till this asshole runs out and pop him". One simply cannot say they won't be in that situation. To answer Erick, this was not a square range class, this was a class with people moving, firing from behind cover and firing airsoft, so you had instant feedback when you lost. All the arguments were made"What if I'm moving?", "What about other positions? Is it true from prone? Kneeling? Supine?" Whether attacker or defender, the guy who drew the sidearm and fired always beat the guy reloading the rifle. Granted, it's one class with about 30 data points. Someone who is really fast reloading their rifle against someone real slow reloading their pistol will probably win. But I don't see training with the idea that your opponent will be incompetent as being a good idea. We really don't have to agree on this. To some playing the odds as it were may not be enough reason, but I can't bring myself to not carry it. I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible.
|
|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Nov 22, 2015 23:39:00 GMT -5
I also say this... I almost always carry my sidearm, even now in ROL. Without ROL, I'll still have it on me as the secondary, but ready for transitions if needs be. To me there is no weight penalty for a sidearm and associated magazines. It's a fact of life. As always with these discussions, YMMV, and whatever you decide upon, rock on.
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2015 2:06:41 GMT -5
Seems more suited to urban assault ops which are not really part of my AC plan. Panzer-"Imagine if you had to throw away every magazine you used, at risk of never getting it back. How many magazines would you carry? How would that change your operating style for anything but home defence?" I would not carry any additional mags because I don't carry loose ammo to load into mags. There's no sense carrying any ammo that is not in a magazine. As it stands, urban warfare is an unavoidable part of my current plan, and therefore exists that requirement. Even for those of you living in the 'wild' as it were; As it stands the majority of resources that you're going to have available to you unless your hunting skills are top notch and you are in a food rich environment (and if you are, then good...) are going to be stored in buildings of some kind. Come the fall of man in the civilised world, no one is going to care about money, but they're going to defend things like food to keep them alive quite violently... And that tends to be kept in buildings of one description or another. Unless you can live off the land NOW, you are still dependant on the supply chain for food, and that is primarily centred in urban areas.
|
|