Where did the magazine count come from?

[waffenmacht]

I personally run 9 total, 8 in the chest rig, one in the weapon. I may sometimes have more in a ruck but that's not often.

[panzer0170]

Our SOPs are 8 magazines per Infanteer, with 2 of those supposed to feed the LSW. I think anywhere in the 6-10 region is reasonable, depending on how you're carrying. I wouldn't want to go much lower than 6 ready mags because.... well, paranoia more than anything else. Given that I prefer hip-based ammo anyway, the difference is not really noticeable, so it's no big deal for myself. Obviously if you're working a chest rig or a vest etc it can drastically change how fun your day is quite quickly.

[Hawkeye]

May 10, 2015 18:46:49 GMT -5 eddiewouldclearhot said:

i think people ran around with 12-18 magazines on chest rig, quickly realized it sucks, and then dropped to what they needed.

it probably also depends on how you carry them. Old school LBE its very easy to carry 12 magazines around your waist. on the chest, it wears on you lower back. chest rig is faster in my opinion. everything is a trade off.

Pretty much this.
My additional wooden nickle's worth..... As time has progressed, folks moved from carrying on the waist, to the chest. 4 GI issue ALICE mag pouches (which hold 3 each)on the belt line, was not uncommon. Once things started moving to chest rigs and plate carriers, guys found that not only was that same load uncomfortable, but it was bulky, cumbersome, and in the way. Things needed to be slimmed down. At that point, simple physics started to come into play. 4 magazines side by side is about the max width of the average adult male chest. So 4 kinda became the default number, and things have varied from there (3, 4, 6, 8) as guys discovered how much they realistically needed, given the specific mission, etc..

[panzer0170]

May 14, 2015 8:26:38 GMT -5 Hawkeye said:

May 10, 2015 18:46:49 GMT -5 eddiewouldclearhot said:

i think people ran around with 12-18 magazines on chest rig, quickly realized it sucks, and then dropped to what they needed.

it probably also depends on how you carry them. Old school LBE its very easy to carry 12 magazines around your waist. on the chest, it wears on you lower back. chest rig is faster in my opinion. everything is a trade off.

Pretty much this.
My additional wooden nickle's worth..... As time has progressed, folks moved from carrying on the waist, to the chest. 4 GI issue ALICE mag pouches (which hold 3 each)on the belt line, was not uncommon. Once things started moving to chest rigs and plate carriers, guys found that not only was that same load uncomfortable, but it was bulky, cumbersome, and in the way. Things needed to be slimmed down. At that point, simple physics started to come into play. 4 magazines side by side is about the max width of the average adult male chest. So 4 kinda became the default number, and things have varied from there (3, 4, 6, 8) as guys discovered how much they realistically needed, given the specific mission, etc..

Yep. We went from webbing to plate carriers to back injuries to webbing again, though some of that is a logistical issue. Telic/Herrick was the first time the UK has used 'proper' body armour, and certainly the first time it's used plate carriers with functionality other than carrying plates. We bought enough sets for soldiers actually in theatre, and so a lot of training is still done sans PC. Everyone got the new toy, threw their mags on and ditched webbing, because new is always better, right?

2-3 tours later and guys were going back to a stripped down belt kit, and maybe a single mag on their PC for when they were somewhere 'safe' - Enough to fight your way to your webbing, one would hope. Obviously, this is partly (mostly) an issue of gear availability, and especially the fact that the logistics chain will replace issued gear but not bought gear. I like the UW gear chest rigs, and they're cracking for what they're designed for - They do however disagree with the BRITISH logistics chain (Though I know there is a lot of stuff in the US that becomes approved for commercial purpose by the establishment...).

No doubt a combination of factors, but it definitely contributes to why the British Army is set up how it is. Between that and the fact that webbing allows you that shelf, and our gear comes sans hip belt? Webbing is here to stay, for now at least. I think if I found a good solid bag with a quality hip belt (I have, 2-3 actually...) then I'd be inclined towards a chest rig (Just waiting on mine now, I've finally given in and decided to get one) But most likely it's going to spend it's time getting less use than I'd like whilst I'm in the UK, depending on what role I'm in and quite how the Reserve uses me....

A lot of the planning figures with high numbers coming from either A) SWAT B) SF or C) Regular Infantry are because you're assuming you will either A) Dump a magazine into someone. B) Dump a magazine into someone, or C) Take an objective and expect a position in depth (assuming competent enemy in a proper defensive position) and therefore you need to be able to just... carry on.

[thefng]

From what I've been hearing, the Sf units are actually going back to no body armor and 4 mags on a rig (no doubt more in reserve in the pack) for your typical mission. If they are hitting a prepared position they of course jock up with the armor and heavy ammo loads.

I was told this is because they had too many guys heat-stroking wearing armor all the time, and heavy loads were causing more injury than combat was. Which I can understand.

I just didn't understand when I saw pictures of guys in Falluja with only 3 spare mags visible (some guys running pump shotguns!!), I kept think of Blackhawk Down where guys get separated from their vehicles and are having to scrounge enemy gear to stay in the fight all night.

[panzer0170]

We had authority to go without armour with permission down at Company level; Regular troops, not SF. Several units chose to, assuming IED threat was low. I doubt they were going low on magazines, mind you.

If you looked at Cas figures VERY FEW guys were shot, and those that were tended to be shot in the side, leg, face, neck etc. Very few shots to where plates were. Plates have their place, but really it's doorkicking and similar situations. Especially the cheap & heavy issued ones!

[panzer0170]

We had authority to go without armour with permission down at Company level; Regular troops, not SF. Several units chose to, assuming IED threat was low. I doubt they were going low on magazines, mind you.

If you looked at Cas figures VERY FEW guys were shot, and those that were tended to be shot in the side, leg, face, neck etc. Very few shots to where plates were. Plates have their place, but really it's doorkicking and similar situations. Especially the cheap & heavy issued ones!

[eddiewouldclearhot]

May 16, 2015 14:02:11 GMT -5 thefng said:

From what I've been hearing, the Sf units are actually going back to no body armor and 4 mags on a rig (no doubt more in reserve in the pack) for your typical mission. If they are hitting a prepared position they of course jock up with the armor and heavy ammo loads.

I was told this is because they had too many guys heat-stroking wearing armor all the time, and heavy loads were causing more injury than combat was. Which I can understand.

I just didn't understand when I saw pictures of guys in Falluja with only 3 spare mags visible (some guys running pump shotguns!!), I kept think of Blackhawk Down where guys get separated from their vehicles and are having to scrounge enemy gear to stay in the fight all night.

Yep. 4 mags per target is about right. Buildings = armour. patrolling/jungle more mags, less armor.

for a fallujah type scenario, you have to carry a lot of both.

[odgreen]

For me, the mission drives the gear, and situations vary depending upon what I am doing or happen to be in the middle of. From a Military view, Soldiers may have lots of friends with them which is always a bonus in a fight, sometimes they have air support, call in air strikes, etc. From the armed citizen perspective, I may not have friends with me, and air support or air strikes probably won't happen, so what I carry is the only things I have (in this situation I prefer to carry more ammo). My rigs vary in what I am carrying, and how I am carrying it, and the decision to which rig will depend upon the situation. I have tried for years to come up with one rig that meets everything, but can't seem to make that happen. Sometimes weather also changes gear, in that I live where it snows about half of the year, so having gear that goes over bulkier clothing is a must.

If riding in vehicles, then I prefer a chest rig as it is easier to access mags, and if in a vehicle my primary shoulder weapon by choice is a FAL.  My all around shoulder weapon is an AR15, but for vehicles I much prefer something in 30cal.

If door kicking, I prefer a plate carrier with 4 mags on the front in doublestack flap covered pouches, and a war belt with a handgun in drop leg on my primary side, and a subload mag carrier with 4 rifle mags on my support side.

If on foot carrying a backpack, then my chest is occupied with the backpack shoulder straps, and the waist is occupied with the belt from the pack, so I carry 4 mags on the thigh. I generally carry a few extra mags in the pack.

[Erick]

Much good answers were already had in this thread,... but here are my 2 cents w/ some additional considerations:

As civilian 1st defenders (and this moniker applies to all us active duty and ex mil on here who look to defend our families/friends) in a grid down situation..... we are in a very different operational concept than members of an infantry section dismounting a vehicle in the GWOT, to hose down some insurgents .

The operational concept (kit+ TTPs) of the GWOT military evolved around a paramilitary police type employment of guys riding around on vehicles or manning checkpoints as a quasi police force, showing the flag and securing an area for the public.

As civilian 1st defenders in a grid down situation, or insurgent role, we are pretty much the opposite of that...

Most of our projected firefights should be limited to skirmishes and in the meantime we enjoy the lighter load which will enable us to be more agile, and when the chips come down, move faster.

We don't intend to assault against stong/determined opposition in an extended firefight..

Also we don't have the ammo stocks to adopt a "hose'em down" approach to fire superiority as the .mil does and that affects our loadout as well.

If we meet strong opposition we withdraw.. and if the opposition is very weak, like for example a bunch of free-shit army entitlement thugs spilling out of the cities,.. well we can likely handle those guys running 5 mags /man even if being offensive..


In our realistic applications less, sometimes really is, more..

[protus]

Gotta agree Erik. Our mission (s) will ...should be different. But also have balance to go heavy per say.
Eventually you will run heavy in an insurgency (via picked up equipment etc) .
But for general shtf /reddawn /zombies Imho 4 mags plus your belt kit or Ruck to top off from is plenty.
If me and a team of (4 total) ..can't deal with an encounter after 3-5 mags each we are doing something very wrong. For me..its. deass and access ..if they want me..they can come after me and walk right into an ambush ....

[matt]

I typically stick with 4-6 magazines (3-4 in chest rig and 1-2) for mostly mundane reasons. I am not prior military so I don't come from that context.

1 - May carbine courses are going to ask that you keep a minimum number of mags on your person so you don't slow down the line. In my experience, that number is between 4 and 6. So, I have built my rigs around how I train.

2 - As an average citizen type, I prefer low profile gear. Chest rigs with stacked mag carriers are not low profile. Most guys can probably conceal a Minuteman or Swampfox under a light jacket and I like that.

3 - More than 4-6 starts to get heavy. There. I said it. I have done carbine courses with a TT Mav loaded with 8+ magazines. That isn't a realistic load out for me and so I generally avoid it now (though I still do keep a chest rig or two around that is capable of carrying that type of load).

4 - 3-4 mags in a chest rig is kind of a magic number. If you go more than that, you are probably going to have use a rig with double mag pouches and see point 2.

[panzer0170]

There is something about THIS setup that appeals to me for everything short of outright fighting.

I can see it being used for 99% of everyones needs, with the ability to throw say a minuteman on, or a plate carrier with 3 mags on it and you have a fighting capability.

Anything else? Grab a daysack and you're golden.

I might be wrong, I haven't tried it, but it looks pretty damned squared away and I would love to try this out with a ruck etc. (Assuming the back panel is kept clear!)

Tailored to your own personal needs, naturlich.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Jul 10, 2015 18:48:20 GMT -5 panzer0170 said:

There is something about THIS setup that appeals to me for everything short of outright fighting.

I can see it being used for 99% of everyones needs, with the ability to throw say a minuteman on, or a plate carrier with 3 mags on it and you have a fighting capability.

Anything else? Grab a daysack and you're golden.

I might be wrong, I haven't tried it, but it looks pretty damned squared away and I would love to try this out with a ruck etc. (Assuming the back panel is kept clear!)

Tailored to your own personal needs, naturlich.

I like the MAC youtube channel and appreciate his insights and reviews, but...

This looks very similar to the Infidel War Belt from U.S.Grunt Gear. The differences would be the Boltaron (kydex like) holster/mag keeper etc. The Infidel also has the under belt with the velcro which the outer belt (padded) can attach. U.S. Grunt Gear also has a "non-padded" outer belt IIRC. Yes, the Infidel is going to be a bit bulkier.

I guess if you need the concealment of a pistol, two pistol mags, two rifle mags, BOK and utility pouch this would be a good kit...although if you have two rifle mags, you may have a rifle that would need to be concealed as well. I can see this for those doing personal protection, or State Dept. type folks.

I'm not planning to have to conceal my "war" belt. If it gets to the point that i have to don the "war" belt...well, it won't matter if its concealed. If I need to carry concealed, it would likely be a pistol and two spare pistol mags and TQ. If I was carrying my pistol concealed and had a rifle stashed nearby and felt I may need that, I would just throw on my UWGear Chest Rig that conceals pretty well under a jacket. The pistol would be used only to get to the rifle.

The Infidel is about $110 without any pouches or holsters vs. $450 for the Low Threat Concealment setup he was showing.

Having said this, I do not yet have my Infidel...am awaiting it in the next 2-4 weeks. I know Eddiewouldbehot has had some issues with his holster attachment. He may be able to chime in on comfort, build quality, etc.

[panzer0170]

Well it is. It's very similar to... well, a LOT of war belts, and I've seen them from Ares Armor and other companies, all very similar. As he points out in the video, with a preferred setup of pouches his belt as configured costs less than his HSGI belt; Which he also likes and uses a lot.

I'd want to get my hands on one before I bought. I'm not a fan of reviewing things that act like clothing and buying them on other peoples reviews; I will never own a pair of skinny jeans in my life even if I wanted to, because I have actual leg muscles.

The point being it's everything UP TO a war belt; It is in fact, in my mind, a 'run away' belt. During the majority of my working career, assuming I stay in the job I'm in, I'm going to be in a suit, in a 'gun free zone'. (Teaching, yay!)

I can get away with wearing a blank belt and a normal suit, and throw this on over the top and go from legally sound, smart teacher looks to capable of defending myself and others. Or it'll wear and be nice and concealed. OR. OR. OR.

Somewhere in there, I am going to want a PROPER set of webbing, because I am an Englishman and webbing with a yoke is, for everything I've ever needed it for, the best solution for most things I'll ever want.