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Post by thefng on May 9, 2015 2:03:02 GMT -5
OK, I see a bunch of rigs people set up. Whether a battle belt or chest rig or plate carrier, it's almost universal to carry 3 or 4 magazines for the rifle.
Granted, more may be in the rucksack, but these are for immediate use. I was wondering what criteria determined this is a good number to have? Was it made by people with huge amounts of combat who decided 5 total mags ready was enough to get them through a fight and still be ready for another before having to delve into the A-pack for more? Or is it that that's how many you can get on your chest rigs or plate carriers in a single layer, so tha must be the right number?
Seems this contrasts with the basic military idea of at least 6 in pouches and one in the gun with a bandoleer of six in the A-pack, though I think the Corps runs 8+1 on the rigs and a bandoleer of 6.
Where did the reason for so much less come into existence?
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Post by panzer0170 on May 9, 2015 6:11:20 GMT -5
For most folk, you'll likely find a similar number of magazines are actually being carried, just perhaps not directly accessible.
I know for others, the whole concept is that (and rightly so) you're not an Infantry section, so what you're going to do is WITHDRAW. That means you don't need to assault, which means you need less ammo. And let's face it; You can only use one magazine at a time. If you need more than 4 mags to get to somewhere where you can sort yourself out? You've got bigger issues.
Between that and the masses of experience that carrying weight = just slowing you down, you have to find a balance.
Assuming magazines still weigh a pound, I reckon you can get a 2 day patrol WITH COMFORTS at a fighting weight of less than 20lbs, excluding rifle/armour, so long as you're not TRYING to be a 'DS' Infanteer, carrying everything we get told Infanteers should carry.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on May 9, 2015 6:38:11 GMT -5
Panzer got it for the most part. In the realm of our subject matter we dont / should not need 8-12 mags per guy.(on the rig ). Others its a matter of weight vs speed vs mission. To put it in real terms. How far can you walk...jog...run witb X weight ? How does that performance relate to your mission ,can you afford to add more or do you need to subtract. Me personally. I run 4 (uw rig) plus 2(optional as i have a two mag pouch on my belt ). This is a total of 6 plus 1 in the rifle. Honestly any others will be stowed in my ruck or in a grab bag(mission specific here -aka in truck or lp/op for example). With a base of four i can still do what i can with zero and not be burdened by six across the front ( which i disliked ).ymmv
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Post by thefng on May 9, 2015 8:44:39 GMT -5
Ok, good answers.
Would this also apply to the military personnel I see pictures of running shingles of three or four and no other ready magazine visible?
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Post by panzer0170 on May 9, 2015 9:04:22 GMT -5
Ok, good answers. Would this also apply to the military personnel I see pictures of running shingles of three or four and no other ready magazine visible? That would entirely depend on context of the image. Why does a medic working in a field hospital need all those magazines when there's FP guys making the place safe? He doesn't, so he won't carry them. Field medics will have some ammo but their priority is medical gear, radio man is more bothered by comms etc. It also depends on setting; Urban, Woodland, Plains? If i'm totally urban and vehicle based, the belly is perhaps the only real space for mag-loading. I know for a time we (the British) ran 'grab bags' that'd carry radios, act as a dump pouch, and you could pass them off to someone easily if you were taken out of action for any reason. This left infantrymen with 2-3 magazines visible on plates but with the capability to tool themselves up massively if needs be. I'd need to see the specific pictures, to even make an educated guess, really.
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Post by thefng on May 9, 2015 14:45:47 GMT -5
They were urban, so you're probably right, they were likely close to vehicles. It was back from the time of the second battle of Fallujah, and it kind of surprised my to see a line of guys with that little ammo, but there may have been vehicles just out of frame.
I guess I'm just paranoid with thinking "What if something happens to the vehicle, or I get trapped in a building we just entered and there I am with 3 mags plus what's left in the rifle...."
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Post by panzer0170 on May 9, 2015 15:08:06 GMT -5
It's also very dependant on number of guys near you. If you're in there with BG+ strength, in a small space? You're only going to realistically fight a short distance anyway before someone else rolls through your position. Then you re-bomb, protect the rear, repeat.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 10, 2015 11:24:40 GMT -5
Here is a review i initially wrote to hawkeye after using his swampfox rig for the first time in a long patrol. This was both a long patrol through a no-kidding jungle to a direct action hit against a town and then a late night ambush. This was in an active duty context, but it may help to answer your question. the patrol reference below was a training exercise over 3 days with no sleep and little food. we used simunitions, which are paint bullet fired out of a rifle at each other. they hurt, and are designed to reinforce good movement through pain.
My preference for 5 magazines (4 on gear, 1 in rifle) is just based on my combat experience, which is a combination of urban dismounted patrols, jungle training, and mountain warfare. I had access to resupply, but honestly never really needed it much unless it was more than a 2 day operation. I'd say you need about 5 mags PER OBJECTIVE. so if you have multiple missions or objectives, you need 5 per. Another note is that my job is not to pull triggers, i spend most of my time on a radio talking to the biggest killers on the battlefield.
so with that said here are my thoughts:
- the different colored pull tabs worked out really well, especially when you are tired. it also worked ok somehow under night vision. One of the best things about your tab design is that they are silent. You can put in a fresh mag without everyone in the woods knowing about it. The tabs were pretty tactile, and with some repetition I had ZERO issues finding them when I needed them, brilliant idea, thank you for including them on my rig.
-PROTECTION: the original reason I bought your gear was that it protects magazines without giving up speed. This is absolutely true. that's a lot. I had no issues reloading when time counted. If you are using cover like you should be (and want to when real bullets are flying around) the flaps don't get in the way. I'm pleased that after crawling through the jungle to get to the town that I had no malfunctions because of dirt getting into my mags. this peace of mind is priceless when you've got about a billion other things to worry about. by the way, we did several air assaults into several landing zones during this training. I had some TT mag pouches on the outside of my ruck. those magazines were covered in dirt from the rotor wash. the ones in my swamp fox didn't were free of dirt and debris. The pouches are also sized exactly right so you can retain magazines easily when reloading.
-CAPACITY: I was a little worried about this. In a one hour firefight in a town I went though 4 magazines. I remember thinking after being pinned behind a wall that I would really like to have another mag. I never needed it. There are some out there that think you need a billion magazines. You don't. The fight in that town was intense, but I had enough ammo. I resupplied out of my ruck after it was over. no problem. Even in real fights I can't recall ever using more than 5 magazines and not having a ruck there to reload from. So it ended up being a non-issue.
-STABILITY: this is one area i think could be improved. Don't get me wrong, the rig did not flop around or anything during movement or combat, and it was comfortable enough, but I think it could be better. If there was a way integrate a hydration pouch between the shoulder cross strap and the back waist strap I think this would increase stability and make it a little more comfortable. It might just be me though I'm not a big guy. someone else might fill out the rig better. The rig works really well when integrated with a ruck, which is something a lot of other designs don't do.
-WEIGHT AND DESIGN: That said, this rig is light and fast. it weighs almost nothing, and carries exactly what you need (IFAK and night vision) which is good for resisting the urge to carry everything. Its very streamlined, which is great for patrolling through dense jungle or rounding tight corners in an urban setting. The fact that you can unsnap the front and prone out is AWESOME, especially when you are sitting in an ambush for a couple hours. The swap fox has great ventilation, which cannot be understated. when your in 100 degree heat with 100 percent humidity, ventilation is everything if you want to stay in the fight. the swap fox helped to keep me healthy and in the fight while others with bulkier rigs went down or could not help the team by carrying extra gear.
I'm really pleased with the rig, it's phenomenal, and it's now my go to fighting load. Your customer service is also the best. Thank you so much again for hooking me up in time. Huge gear companies would never had done that. I really appreciate it. This set up has the best features I've had in a fighting set up and it cost me about 100 bucks. I almost cant believe it.
Please feel free to use this email in whatever way you see fit (as long as you take my name and contact info out) if you want to post it on your forum or website that's fine. I apologize in advance for the shoddy spelling and grammar. Although I slept, I might be still a little sleep deprived.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 10, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5
They were urban, so you're probably right, they were likely close to vehicles. It was back from the time of the second battle of Fallujah, and it kind of surprised my to see a line of guys with that little ammo, but there may have been vehicles just out of frame. I guess I'm just paranoid with thinking "What if something happens to the vehicle, or I get trapped in a building we just entered and there I am with 3 mags plus what's left in the rifle...." 1) training. honestly if you are placing your shots, 5 magazines will last a while. If you are not as proficient or if you don't have some experience, ammo goes faster. be honest with yourself about how trained you are. ammo equals time, but you may not need as much as you think if you are tagging a guy every time you pull the trigger. 2) ensure your team runs the same weapon., not just the same caliber. this helps with ammo redistribution in case that scenario happens.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 10, 2015 11:45:32 GMT -5
1 round every six seconds = 5 minutes. That's five minutes of continuous fire. If you are firing deliberate and aren't having an effect, stop. If you ARE having an effect you'll either A) shoot the guy you're surpressing, and therefore you can stop, or B) someone else can move. If you can't get distance to close in 5 minutes, something has gone wrong. Extended defence of a position starts to change how things are going, and it starts changing how you're playing, especially as you start going towards 360 arcs. Eddie makes an excellent point and I'd agree with his estimates. The greener you are the more you'll shoot. Afghan contacts could go through hundreds of rounds with no effect, or 2-3 rounds with maximum effect. GENERALLY, those high round count contacts were towards the start of any tour, when the new lads need reigning in and practise of fire discipline. In contrast the SAS when clearing the Israeli Embassy emptied TWO magazines (from two seperate weapons) into one guy at the top of a set of stairs before throwing his body down it, and the guy at the bottom fired another full mag into him... Just in case. The question is are you walking around relatively open areas, or are you working as part of a CT team clearing embassies with hostages?
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Post by thefng on May 10, 2015 16:06:42 GMT -5
It's really not about what I do, or would do.
I was just wondering why the sudden change happened from seeing guys running around with chest rigs full of 12-15 magazine, plus grenades (if military), and at least 4 pistol. mags, down to 3-4 mags on the rig/plate carrier and two pistol mags on the belt.
But great point I hadn't considered: you need a hell of a lot less ammo for effective fire than for ineffective fire.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 10, 2015 16:14:14 GMT -5
Well. Replace 'You' with 'The user' or 'X Unit SOPs', I wasn't aiming it directly at yourself.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 10, 2015 18:46:49 GMT -5
i think people ran around with 12-18 magazines on chest rig, quickly realized it sucks, and then dropped to what they needed.
it probably also depends on how you carry them. Old school LBE its very easy to carry 12 magazines around your waist. on the chest, it wears on you lower back. chest rig is faster in my opinion. everything is a trade off.
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4track
Junior Member
Posts: 276
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Post by 4track on May 10, 2015 19:27:21 GMT -5
I like two rifle mags on my belt, for immediate reloads.
I keep two more on my back pack, either for me, or for a buddy.
With one in the rifle, I feel like that should be plenty, for my perceived needs.
If I think that I going to need more, then I can always don a three mag chest rig, or bandoleer.
I also keep three pistol mags on my belt, too.
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Post by omnivorous on May 11, 2015 1:01:55 GMT -5
A little tongue-in-cheek, but I think what stopped the 12+ mags on chest rigs, is back injuries, and dudes realizing it sucks very much, too. I don't have the experience nor training opportunities as eddiewouldclearhot (thanks for briefly sharing your account, btw) but I have been doing a lot of "dry-firing" of my gear, as Hawkeye puts it, and for me, I've come to a baker's dozen being a good total amount. Its all divided up across the gear of course; 1x in the rifle, 4 on the vest, 2 on the belt/dropleg, and the remaining six in pouches on the outside of the pack. I don't have all of the gee wiz stuff like thermals and nods, so the space freed-up by not having that equipment, I fill in with more of what is applicable for my current state of affairs.
I kind of think of ammo in the same way as food and water (not to come across as if I'm some kind of innovator), i.e. something that I'm carrying that I would be using-up while conducting whatever it is that would necessitate the gear and other sundries in the first place. If I hit 1/2 of my food/water being depleted, then I need to either replenish the stocks, or use the remaining half to get back home. ACs aren't going to have the same kind of supply train the DoD can roll-out, so hitting red on any of our operational supplies, is a very, very bad place to be.
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