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Post by thefng on May 3, 2015 13:23:08 GMT -5
Basic question: Is there a role for the combat shotgunner in the UW world?
I don't suppose it could be argued too vehemently argued against in the urban and suburban arena, as they are good for both breaching and fighting.
But what about in the woods (since that seems to be the main focus of the board)? Many of us live in the eastern woodlands, and I don't know about the rest of you, but the woods near me are very dense and the shotgun may be a good item to have. IIRC, shotguns were fairly popular in Vietnam because of the dense vegetation. Even going back top WWI, however, even with the open field combat which we tend not to see much anymore, they were a terrifying weapon to the point the Germans tried to get them outlawed for use in war.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 3, 2015 14:28:12 GMT -5
If nothing else, they are so ubiquitous that my answer would be yes. You point out some good benefits, and given most fighting happens at ~100m and less? (all the fighting, as opposed to the tactical withdrawal because bugger assaulting that far in tiny groups against anyone remotely well tooled...) Given someone with a bit of training (and here lies the trick, with any peice of gear, trained people make a massive difference) can regularly hit targets with slugs @ 100m? Sure, why not. Make a good tool for harvesting food if you're going down that route, people have used them for breaching etc... It's definitely one of the most versatile weapons, and from what I've seen? comparitively cheap.
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Post by waffenmacht on May 4, 2015 6:11:36 GMT -5
Depending on your mission and terrain, yes. There has been a role for them here since the Revolutionary War.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on May 4, 2015 9:01:47 GMT -5
IMHO not particularly. Not as a specific, "that's my primary sidearm" thing, anyway.
Perhaps as a "what to use as a means to get better weapons" kind of thing, but that's all I'd say about it.
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winter
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Post by winter on May 4, 2015 16:51:32 GMT -5
The only use my brain can justify for one, outside of urban warfare, is for your point man. Even that is of limited use.
Let's say point has a saiga 12 and he and the team successfully break contact out of the kill zone. What use is the shotty now? It won't go through any cover and it can stopped by some concealment. It lacks range and punch at range.
I'd say it is not worth the loss of ammo compatibility and range.
It beats a sharp stick though.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 4, 2015 17:23:17 GMT -5
I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to get one as a primary. But given some sort of 'fight with what you have' situation, I wouldn't be totally unhappy if I had shotguns and people capable of getting something from them. For example, here a shotgun certificate is bloody easy to get. a firearms license on the other hand, is a PITA. I would gladly learn how to fight a shotgun, given it's the only really worthy firearm you can get hold of here (that, or a decent bolt gun...) It all boils back down to the old situation/mission/terrain aspect again. What are you combining it WITH? Do you have enough manpower that it's WORTH specialising, or are you just better off with 4x ARs? Do you need to arm 4 guys to fight up close because you live in an apartment block and your WROL plan is basically to make sure the ground floor stays secure? Definitely agree with winter Though there's a lot of fun to be had with appropriately sharpened sticks
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Post by Spinebuster on May 4, 2015 19:44:28 GMT -5
I am a fan of the shotgun. I have one and have a mix of shells for it ranging from target (bird shot) all the way to Hydra Shoc slugs. I am also going to learn how to reload for it as well. It is a very useful and versatile tool.
Now I have tried humping one through the woods as a primary and with the weight of the gun and ammo it is a pain. Also a pain to manipulate in combat situations (I have a Mossberg 590 pump). I am not a stand up, square range fighter so I prone out or fire from cover so that is a drawback. I would rather use my AR for patrolling and general use. The weight and amount of ammo for the AR vs 12 gauge kinda makes any advantage of using one in combat a moot point. If you do carry it as a primary if the situation arises make sure you have plenty of friends with you with regular rifles to back you up. The shotgun is one of many things you should have in your proverbial bag of tricks.
However a great use for it is in camp for security uses and if you know for sure that you will be in a built up environment. With the variety of loads you can use with it it can be used for hunting as well. I would rather hunt with a shotgun than waste 5.56 for that purpose. Before anyone starts I know you can hunt with 5.56 (.223) but I would rather use that for the bad guy than for dinner. Also you would be surprised at the range of 00 buck and slugs.
Another plus is with my Mossberg it has a bayonet lug. There is something about looking at that huge 12 gauge sized hole with a knife stuck on the end of it that is sure to make a potential bad guy get soupy pants real quick.
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Post by omnivorous on May 5, 2015 1:05:21 GMT -5
Yeah, if its one of the few fighting weapons in a limited resources type of scenario, I wouldn't refuse one. Beyond special circumstances, and beyond special purposes, I don't think a combat shotgun would be as applicable across the spectrum of scenarios possible, as a good carbine or shorter rifle would be.
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protus
Junior Member
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Post by protus on May 6, 2015 8:02:50 GMT -5
Yeah, if its one of the few fighting weapons in a limited resources type of scenario, I wouldn't refuse one. Beyond special circumstances, and beyond special purposes, I don't think a combat shotgun would be as applicable across the spectrum of scenarios possible, as a good carbine or shorter rifle would be. With you on this. Sides ammo /capacity you have range and penetration issues. Is it a platform that should be skipped over. I don't think so. Right tool for the job and all that. Two guys out harvesting game (one with carbine /title) sure bring the shotgun ...clearing rooms in a highrise condo building...yeah..useful tool...out on a patrol in the plains of Dakotas ....not so much....... But then again Robert Morris favored one .....as did the Rhodesian forces.....
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Post by thefng on May 6, 2015 11:20:51 GMT -5
Great replies guys. I'm glad there's so much knowledge to plumb.
Reason I asked is that we have a "disaster preparedness club". We have one guy that runs a shotgun, and he has a pistol. A lot of the guys have been pressuring him to get a rifle. Now, the guy doesn't make a lot of money to go buy a rifle and all the shit to go with it. He's good with the shotgun, meat hunts with it all his life, and we've had him at the range, and he can hit at 100 just fine with slugs (which is all our range goes out to anyway). I say let him run it, I just told him he needs to expect a lot of shit duty, like he's always going to be the door kicker, he's going to be the guy running out of ammo all the time, and having to reload on the fly, etc.
Now the area we live in is fairly dense housing separated by dense woods. I don't know of many places you could even go prone and see more than 20 feet or so, unless you are aiming down a street or alley or something, at which point you probably want to be on your feet to move quickly once you start shooting.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 6, 2015 11:51:01 GMT -5
I think the big concern is ammo/ammo sharing. Beyond that, in the environment you describe? If the man is competent, let him carry on. If he's HAMPERING, then help him become a rifleman, if he's helping? Let him crack on. Realistically the end of the world will not appear overnight, if at all. Having a guy around that's competent with the thing is never a bad choice
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protus
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Post by protus on May 6, 2015 12:40:57 GMT -5
Great replies guys. I'm glad there's so much knowledge to plumb. Reason I asked is that we have a "disaster preparedness club". We have one guy that runs a shotgun, and he has a pistol. A lot of the guys have been pressuring him to get a rifle. Now, the guy doesn't make a lot of money to go buy a rifle and all the shit to go with it. He's good with the shotgun, meat hunts with it all his life, and we've had him at the range, and he can hit at 100 just fine with slugs (which is all our range goes out to anyway). I say let him run it, I just told him he needs to expect a lot of shit duty, like he's always going to be the door kicker, he's going to be the guy running out of ammo all the time, and having to reload on the fly, etc. Now the area we live in is fairly dense housing separated by dense woods. I don't know of many places you could even go prone and see more than 20 feet or so, unless you are aiming down a street or alley or something, at which point you probably want to be on your feet to move quickly once you start shooting. While he is reloading who's covering his sector? If your bounding /team movement there will be issues on that side as well. Only thing a rifle needs is ammo...magazines and a competent trigger puller. You don't need fancy slings..optics...gadgets ....
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Post by thefng on May 7, 2015 1:36:56 GMT -5
Obviously, he'd be paired with someone.
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protus
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Posts: 323
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Post by protus on May 7, 2015 4:01:26 GMT -5
Obviously, he'd be paired with someone. He's stuck at 5-8 rounds before a slow reload. It puts him and his partner or the other team at risk when that happens. Ex. He fires three rounds his partner covers he moves...he goes hot fires ...partner moves...click... Partner (or other bounding pair) now are in movement with a lull in supporting fire.maybe still out of cover. Then his reload time. The puts sole fire responsibility on his partner or team(again who may not be in cover or need to reload themselves) ..it also results in less lead down range.which gives opportunity to the enemy to move..or put more lead at you. Setting in motion triple F's (find them..fix them in position and fuck /flank them) ...that's not what you want. Don't take it wrong...
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Post by waffenmacht on May 7, 2015 6:20:58 GMT -5
Shotgunners are always "topping off". The should really never go "click". Keep in mind, for every shot fired they are putting 8-12 rounds down-range. It IS a very different technique from running a rifle, but a shotgun CAN be effective in the hands of a competent and trained shooter. All I can advise is if you are interested in running a shotgun as part of a squad, take some professional training classes and learn to run it well.
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