PATROL & RECON ~ Night -v- dawn/dusk

[rmplstlskn]

So I have been giving patrol and reconnaissance a lot of thought lately (thanks to this site and their posts), as being the best method for keeping a home base safe in a PAW or WROL event, as one doesn't want a fight at their front door, yet I cannot understand the whole "patrol and travel at NIGHT" mantra I hear and read over and over...

Ok, I have 49 year old eyes with corrective lenses, granted, but even thinking back to camping and hiking trips going back decades, I cannot remember a time, less a full moon, where I could walk in the woods at NIGHT without any light sources and be stealthy and quiet in any way...

Last fall, while getting our final camping trips in before winter, I tried to walk QUIETLY (patrol) in the woods at NIGHT and couldn't see barely a yard or two in front of my face... I had branches pokeing into my shins, scraping them through my pants, I tripped on vines, my ankles teeter and tottered on loose rocks, and stuff pulled at me as I pushed on through a non-path route in these pitch black ~mountainous~ woodlands... Cross a slippery, rock-strewn stream in darkness, as if... I could fall off a cliff and not feel it until gravity took over...

Do my eyes just $uck at night vision, or is moving at night a bad idea?

Seems to me, moving at dawn & dusk, maybe even day, is more effective for "home base patrol & recon" than moving at night. Night might be better for hunkering down and listening... Since your increased vision also means others can see you easier, the role of CAMO comes in, as well as smart path choices.

Am I the only one that feels like a stumbling elephant at night in the woods? Am I a clueless civvie? How did the military do it BEFORE night-vision?

Rmpl

[wesker]

I have a book at home called "Night Movements" and its translated from a 1913 text. So its old but certainly before the age of night vision. So there are some "tips and tricks" to it that should be relevant to an under equipped civilian. I'll flip through it and throw up some of the points relevant to your questions.

[panzer0170]

Mar 9, 2015 8:13:10 GMT -5 rmplstlskn said:

So I have been giving patrol and reconnaissance a lot of thought lately (thanks to this site and their posts), as being the best method for keeping a home base safe in a PAW or WROL event, as one doesn't want a fight at their front door, yet I cannot understand the whole "patrol and travel at NIGHT" mantra I hear and read over and over...

Ok, I have 49 year old eyes with corrective lenses, granted, but even thinking back to camping and hiking trips going back decades, I cannot remember a time, less a full moon, where I could walk in the woods at NIGHT without any light sources and be stealthy and quiet in any way...

Last fall, while getting our final camping trips in before winter, I tried to walk QUIETLY (patrol) in the woods at NIGHT and couldn't see barely a yard or two in front of my face... I had branches pokeing into my shins, scraping them through my pants, I tripped on vines, my ankles teeter and tottered on loose rocks, and stuff pulled at me as I pushed on through a non-path route in these pitch black ~mountainous~ woodlands... Cross a slippery, rock-strewn stream in darkness, as if... I could fall off a cliff and not feel it until gravity took over...

Do my eyes just $uck at night vision, or is moving at night a bad idea?

Seems to me, moving at dawn & dusk, maybe even day, is more effective for "home base patrol & recon" than moving at night. Night might be better for hunkering down and listening... Since your increased vision also means others can see you easier, the role of CAMO comes in, as well as smart path choices.

Am I the only one that feels like a stumbling elephant at night in the woods? Am I a clueless civvie? How did the military do it BEFORE night-vision?

Rmpl

More, sensible points to follow, however my initial reaction is this;
At first and last light, you'll catch me and mine in all round defence. It used to be considered the best time to attack (as people bedded down, or woke up) and so a lot of 1800s fighting happened then. British SOP EVER SINCE has been to 'stand to' at FL/LL. Patrolling at this time would have you stumble across the FULL force, rather than just whoever is on stag. Bad choice. There are other, better reasons, but I'm on my phone. More to follow.

[winter]

American SOP is the same Panzer.

I have done a shit ton of night patrolling. It can be dangerous and tedious.

A half day class entitled "Unaided Night Vision" was taught to me in the Army and it was widely considered one of the best classes ever.

Google "Unaided Night Vision" and read it, then test it out.

You will be amazed.

[panzer0170]

The ability to patrol in the dark is paramount, for me. Against NVG wearing opponents it's effectiveness is mostly nullified, but I've managed to get <10m from Excercise EF before scaring the shit out of them and opening up on auto.

Also consider sleeping: If you have to sleep rough, would you rather do it in daytime or when the sun has gone and the temps drop? patrolling @ night = not being as cold.

The trick is a well DEFENDED position will have plenty of obstacles that will deny and canalise EF. This makes where you have to patrol regularly a much smaller area. If you can fall off a cliff, so can EF. They'll likely go around.

More thoughts as brain gears up.

[rmplstlskn]

Mar 9, 2015 12:22:01 GMT -5 wesker said:

I have a book at home called "Night Movements" and its translated from a 1913 text. So its old but certainly before the age of night vision. So there are some "tips and tricks" to it that should be relevant to an under equipped civilian. I'll flip through it and throw up some of the points relevant to your questions.

I have this as an eText file on my eReader... I need to read this! Thanks for the tip...

Rmpl

[rmplstlskn]

I am beginning to better understand why night patrol is chosen as ideal... thanks for all the real life experiences!

Rmpl

[panzer0170]

welcome. some military stuff looks, sounds, and FEELS counterintuitive. Till you actually see it work, properly, for reals. Then it clicks. Now, the trick is that some of it IS bollocks. Keep asking questions and experimentig yourself, and you'll soon pick up a nose for bullshit.

[winter]

Mar 9, 2015 14:55:46 GMT -5 panzer0170 said:

 Against NVG wearing opponents it's effectiveness is mostly nullified, but I've managed to get <10m from Excercise EF before scaring the shit out of them and opening up on auto.

That has not been my experience. Our teams (4-5 man LRS) would carry a couple NVG's but Only the senior scout or the TL would wear ONE of them and it was usually the TL wearing it so he could see the scout. Both pairs were broken out for stops and/or when arriving at the hide site.

NV does not penetrate brush very well and the colors are black and green in the NV users eyes. It's like trying to see enemy soldiers in old B&W war films. The lack of spectrum makes it difficult to distinguish shapes and the lack of depth perception when using NV complicates the matter exponentially for the NV reliant observer.

I hated NV myself because my eyes would never reach the pinnicle of natural night vision if I kept having the green flashlight that is NVG blazing into my eyeballs.

As I mentioned before, unaided night vision, when understood and it's principles adhered to is effective for well trained patrols. The "well trained" part is the trick.

I could tell stories of sneaking up on EF vehicles with NV equipped observers and stealing their license plates with my leatherman, but, I guess I just fucking did.

[panzer0170]

Oh, indeed. And there are limitations. But you can cross an open fucking field, with shitty cam, 100m from the enemy, if they don't have NVGs. If they have overwatch with just 1 pair of NVGS, your chances of making it go down considerably. In thick bush, most of the rules of everything change. I must confess my primary experience is European rolling terrain, and the desert. Forestry is for sleeping inside

[winter]

Mar 9, 2015 18:28:05 GMT -5 panzer0170 said:

Oh, indeed. And there are limitations. But you can cross an open fucking field, with shitty cam, 100m from the enemy, if they don't have NVGs. If they have overwatch with just 1 pair of NVGS, your chances of making it go down considerably. In thick bush, most of the rules of everything change. I must confess my primary experience is European rolling terrain, and the desert. Forestry is for sleeping inside

Hahaha, fuck that. Any open country bigger than a dining room table is considered a danger zone for me. I like walking places that a deer will look at me like I'm a retard for going through there. I have a knack for finding the worst lack of trail imaginable. This is why I was senior scout observer for a very short time and quickly relegated to RTO.



ETA- Looking back, the RTO when I was SSO probably still hates my guts. hahaha

[panzer0170]

Consider Europe a danger zone

[Hawkeye]

Took a little walk Sat. morning. This, was an open easy area. The rest, is much thicker. This, at night, = and

[Erick]

Terrain and light really dictates here IMHO:

- little or no moon in dense woods, w/o NVGs can often mean that night patrolling mainly serves to alert your enemy that you are coming, especially if they are stationary waiting at likely channelling terrain.

- Night movement in more open terrain with some natural illum around will still hide you well from non NVG equipped eyes (and some NVG equipped eyes too) but you will still be able to see where you are going so as not to imitate a crashing elephant.

- At night sound is the primary indicator of enemy movement. This often applies even to NVG equipped observers so I try to avoid being that (loud) guy, sometimes this may mean limiting my teams movement in dense woods at night (we can all try to be indians but most of us are not, so I want to be realistic and adapt my TTPs to my Teams strenghts and weaknesses)

I can imagine a Night Patrol or Op being something where my team moves out at dusk and then occupyies an OP (or better yet ambush site) or two and listens.

Especially SHTF, when dealing with entitlement zombies chatting it up at night on their approach to make themselves less scared I expect this to be very effective.
But even some semi-professional outfits that are just out of their element (think the avg SWAT team forced into the woods) can be expected to be very loud at night, even if liberally NVG equipped.
Tactical advantage ---> You

[Hawkeye]

Erick hits on some very good points. Especially that last paragraph.

Additionally, No moon and dense forest can render NODs useless as well.