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Tracer
Apr 21, 2015 22:48:54 GMT -5
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 21, 2015 22:48:54 GMT -5
JAG, good point with the tracers starting a fire. But, as most things in life, there is a good and bad. If that fire is started close to your AO, you better have a way of putting it out so you aren't forced to evacuate. That would suck, and possibly put you as the hunted and not the hunter at that point. Now if you aren't that close to your AO, well then..... Absolutely! see your point but having the entire patrol being able to instantly see what you are shooting at sure does have huge value.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Tracer
Apr 22, 2015 5:11:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by protus on Apr 22, 2015 5:11:21 GMT -5
JAG, good point with the tracers starting a fire. But, as most things in life, there is a good and bad. If that fire is started close to your AO, you better have a way of putting it out so you aren't forced to evacuate. That would suck, and possibly put you as the hunted and not the hunter at that point. Now if you aren't that close to your AO, well then..... Absolutely! see your point but having the entire patrol being able to instantly see what you are shooting at sure does have huge value. Then go old school white light...trace target...up goes a chute flare and its game time.... Unless youve planed to make contact you maybe right on top of the enemy ..with out nvg /IR capabilities your gonna have to break contact or close in and do the down and dirty white light or no light.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Apr 22, 2015 6:23:31 GMT -5
JAG, good point with the tracers starting a fire. But, as most things in life, there is a good and bad. If that fire is started close to your AO, you better have a way of putting it out so you aren't forced to evacuate. That would suck, and possibly put you as the hunted and not the hunter at that point. Now if you aren't that close to your AO, well then..... Absolutely! see your point but having the entire patrol being able to instantly see what you are shooting at sure does have huge value. Agree, tracers can have their place, but the guys that have the tracers need to think about the possible negative ramifications before they shoot is what I was trying to say.
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Tracer
Apr 22, 2015 8:40:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 22, 2015 8:40:04 GMT -5
I agree psd.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Apr 23, 2015 10:51:01 GMT -5
[/quote]Absolutely! see your point but having the entire patrol being able to instantly see what you are shooting at sure does have huge value. [/quote]
remember, they work both ways...
Additionally, I've seen them just add confusion to target location. Firing to gain fire superiority and see a couple tracers go out in a few different directions bc someone forgot they had their tracer mix in... it happens. NOTHING beats positive and redundant communication. I'd take that money and invest in some good inter-squad comms devices, like the Motorola DTR. I'm more of a fan of disciplined IR use, and old school "3D's": Distance, Direction, Description (target talk on)
works like tracers, less fuss.
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Tracer
Apr 23, 2015 14:35:06 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Apr 23, 2015 14:35:06 GMT -5
GRIT;
Group (Rifleman, DM, Machinegunner etc)
Range (Distance...)
Identification (As you're walking along you're calling things out to use as ID points, all through a patrol, so there might be a ruin in the distance and you'd call that 'RUIN'. Throw in a clock ray or something with it and you're good to go.
Type of fire: Rapid, Bursts, Deliberate, Ripple etc.
The key to using tracer is the use of GRIT WITH the Tracer. 'SECTION, WATCH MY TRACER' < Everyone STOPS firing, because it's an appropriate moment and as it stands people are throwing lead into nothing because they haven't a CLUE where the target is and they're putting down fire because... well that's what we've always been taught to do!
Comms is great, but batteries batteries batteries. This throws in a simple redundancy. And sometimes GRIT/DDD is just pure BOGGLE. Little suburban area that's open enough but there are also 2-30 houses within view and you're trying to talk people on to a window? 'PAY ATTENTION, I'M GOING TO SHOOT THE FUCKING WINDOW I'M TALKING ABOUT' can be bloody helpful. Obviously, you can't always get everyone to stop shooting because you need to pin the enemy. The trick is if no one is actually DOING that, not shooting is actually the better course of action than letting them get on with it whilst you go through the motions of GRIT and they have to work out where you're going. Our visual system has SO much emphasis in how we work over ears smell etc, taking advantage of that simple method is key.
As to tracers working both ways; If you're trying to indicate an enemy that's already contacted you, they KNOW where you are. The only way you can get back on top is by getting weapons onto them ASAP. If you get an enemy 'pre-seen' (you see them, they don't see you, no rounds exchanged yet) you've got all the time in the world to work up a detailed GRIT, get blokes into ambushes or move guys so you've got enfilade/defilade fire when you first engage etc that something as simple as tracer becomes a little bit moot anyway.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Apr 24, 2015 11:56:04 GMT -5
Yep, your right, except:
during a fight you should be moving, as firing from one position for an extended period of time tends to draw more bullets your way.
to me, tracers only serve to confirm my position to an enemy that might be looking for the next target to shoot. I know i do this with muzzle flashes when trying to acquire targets. its very similar to the "drake method" that Max V talks about. agreed that suppressive fire thats not aimed at known/likely/suspected locations..isn't suppressive.
If I dont know exactly where an enemy is, i'm shooting where he may be hiding and then maneuvering until the team figures it out or we are out of contact. I'm not discounting how easy target talk ons would be with a tracer, im simply saying its not needed, and it can be done effectively via voice communication:
example: "3 houses down the street, left side of street, 2nd floor, right window." or "1 o'clock, 100 meters, stream bed, 2 personnel"
Thanks for the GRIT, its always interesting how different cultures come up with different ways to solve the same problem.
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Tracer
Apr 24, 2015 20:23:51 GMT -5
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 24, 2015 20:23:51 GMT -5
forgive my ignorance here but if im shooting at the enemy aren't I giving my approximate position away anyways? To me it kinda seems like the argument against velcro on mag pouches giving your position away. I just got done shooting 30 rounds at you I don't think the ripping of velcro will give you a better idea of my position. As far as calling out enemy positions that kinda seems like a shot in the dark to me considering im shooting your shooting THEY are shooting. Again im not John Rambo so my experience here is limited but being able to see without a doubt what my team leader wants me to look at seems like a damn good idea... just sayin
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 11:58:33 GMT -5
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 25, 2015 11:58:33 GMT -5
of course NOD's and a DBAL are even better yet but I like the tracer idea.
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 14:08:23 GMT -5
Post by waffenmacht on Apr 25, 2015 14:08:23 GMT -5
forgive my ignorance here but if im shooting at the enemy aren't I giving my approximate position away anyways? To me it kinda seems like the argument against velcro on mag pouches giving your position away. I just got done shooting 30 rounds at you I don't think the ripping of velcro will give you a better idea of my position. As far as calling out enemy positions that kinda seems like a shot in the dark to me considering im shooting your shooting THEY are shooting. Again im not John Rambo so my experience here is limited but being able to see without a doubt what my team leader wants me to look at seems like a damn good idea... just sayin Suppressors.....
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 14:51:30 GMT -5
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 25, 2015 14:51:30 GMT -5
SOO.. everybody is using cans??? even the enemy? Thats a lot to hope for.
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 18:12:26 GMT -5
Post by waffenmacht on Apr 25, 2015 18:12:26 GMT -5
These days, most of my team are. If the enemy isn't, even better. My point is, if you are using a can then the sound of your weapon discharging wont necessarily give away your position to the enemy.
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 18:19:25 GMT -5
Post by justanothergunnut on Apr 25, 2015 18:19:25 GMT -5
These days, most of my team are. If the enemy isn't, even better. My point is, if you are using a can then the sound of your weapon discharging wont necessarily give away your position to the enemy. ok get that but if my team is yelling contact and locations because we arent using tracers and its day time didnt i just give my position away?? To me if I initiate contact then I have the advantage, if I walked into their ambush then they do. I have always thought that overwhelming well aimed fire power is the best way to break that contact and it only makes sense to me that if the team leader can laser point the object deserving more attention than so much the better. Now IR laser and NOD's may be better but lacking that or during the day aren't tracers a good idea? Again Im no expert but I can just imagine the first minute after a ambush and my team is spread out along a line falling back under fire it might be super helpful to know where I might want to concentrate my fire.. again IM no expert but isnt aimed effective fire better than just randomly shooting into suspected hide spots??
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 19:51:31 GMT -5
Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Apr 25, 2015 19:51:31 GMT -5
JAG,
great points, and i wish i could articulate it better. my failure. to me, yelling seems to be less of a target locator than muzzle flashes or tracer fire. If i see tracers, i know EXACTLY where to shoot. If i hear yelling, or gun fire, i am still left guessing and going through an OODA process. tracers (for me) short circuit that. its even more helpful that AK tracers are green vs. red. So to me, its about time. How much time to i have vs. how fast the enemy can ID my position. They are GOING to ID my position, its just a matter of how fast. Just like ICOM/radio chatter. it will be found, just takes time. how much time is dependant on you. thats why movement/maneuver trumps all, because it restarts that process, until you build a pattern and you COA is identified, but by then it should be too late, and all decision points should be bypassed in an ideal plan. I am biding time until my next move, and hopefully keeping everyone one step behind.
hope this makes sense, it might be a bit broader than your original question.
of course, i could have it entirely wrong. just my thoughts.
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Tracer
Apr 25, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5
Post by waffenmacht on Apr 25, 2015 20:21:32 GMT -5
"ok get that but if my team is yelling contact and locations because we arent using tracers and its day time didnt i just give my position away?"
If your team is yelling, then yes most likely you have or are about to give you position away. And when you fire tracers you will definitely confirm your position to the enemy. The choice to use tracers or not, to yell "contact" when you first see the enemy, or to use suppressors should depend on the particular situation you find yourself in.
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