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Post by Hawkeye on Feb 27, 2015 9:09:28 GMT -5
If one is using solid colors, then mixing and matching can often be beneficial. If one is using a camo pattern, its better to have it all matching. I prefer to have everything the same as much as possible.
As far as effectiveness and distance.... that's highly dependent on the pattern itself, and the environment. This is where many patterns start to separate from the pack. Some, like multicam, will take on the dominant color of the environment. Others, like OSW, tend to just go dark. Doesn't mean it wont work, just means that you need to pay attention to the environment your in. Example - If your hiding in a dark woodline and the enemy is having to look your direction over a large open area, then something like OSW turning dark is beneficial.
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Post by Diz on Feb 27, 2015 11:56:41 GMT -5
Where we were at, right there, I'd say about 25-30m in the bush and you're just a blob of movement. On the trail, maybe 50m, full day light, or low light with NV. As always, bright shiny faces, hands, etc, really stand out from the surroundings. With the heavier woods, movement and noise become more critical.
Yeah I guess we're gonna have to eventually get a go-pro helmet mount so we can vid better in the bush.
The more open the back ground, the more important the camo becomes (duh). In that desert south west shit, you need to resemble the terrain more closely than you do in the woods. A blended camo pattern helps hide you when there's not much else around to do it. With woodlands, you have lots of stuff to mask you, so as long as it's a dull earth tone, you should be GTG. But even then, within 25m or so, the camo pattern will hide you better, taking longer for target ID. Add in a little 3-D camo, such as a ghillie head rag, and you're really cooking. It's that distinctive head and shoulders outline that really stands out.
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 7:33:39 GMT -5
I know DPM is supposed to be effective from 100-300m in a 'western european' setting.
Any closer and it becomes easier to identify things like webbing forming straight lines, helmet shapes etc.
Any further away than about 300m and you start blurring together. Close in woodlands aren't ideal terrain for ANY kind of camouflage pattern alone; But that's why soldiers get taught how to cam up properly using the local environment.
Also pretty much everything Diz and Hawkeye have said so far stands.
My personal addition would be If you have a helmet; SCRIM THE DAMN THING. You'll look like an idiot, but it's superior to being shot. The shape of a helmet is one of the EASIEST things to spot, even if you're laying down and think you're hidden.
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Post by hudson5969 on Feb 28, 2015 11:56:26 GMT -5
Well, the argument against camo I saw was from one of those desert southwest guys.
My argument FOR camo at any range really, but long range in particular is: what if someone is out there glassing the area? The camo may not matter to the naked eye, but using glass effectively brings you closer, and the camo may be that little edge that lets you slip by.
Any merit to that view?
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Post by rmplstlskn on Feb 28, 2015 12:04:30 GMT -5
My personal addition would be If you have a helmet; SCRIM THE DAMN THING. You'll look like an idiot, but it's superior to being shot. The shape of a helmet is one of the EASIEST things to spot, even if you're laying down and think you're hidden. Scrim? Do you mean like adding local vegetation to the cover slits, or a cover with floppy bits of nylon like the sniper suits have?
Rmpl
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 13:09:17 GMT -5
Well, initially, cut up trousers into strips works wonders - breaks up the 'dome' shape, and if you do it right it also removes the straight line nicely above your head. You might want to add in local vegetation, but it would depend on AO. Up close it'll do nothing, but at distance, even in desert, it has the effect of breaking up your outline. As has been pointed out; It's not going to make you invisible, but it's going to give you that 2-3 seconds grace before someone turns and shoots.
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Post by hudson5969 on Feb 28, 2015 14:59:15 GMT -5
I don't see how that makes you look like an idiot....
I think I'm just going to dress up like a clown.
I'll probably get a good 30 seconds or more of "grace" because no one is going to believe a friggin clown driving an ice cream truck through the 'pocyclypse........
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Post by rmplstlskn on Feb 28, 2015 18:52:20 GMT -5
Thanks for finding a good pic... I am going to ponder how to make an elastic cover that looks like that, but maybe greener for my AO...
As for goofy looking...
One of my thoughts about a Kevlar helmet and why I sought them out for myself, wife and teen daughter, was the videos I saw from Ukraine... I saw the need for NOGGIN PROTECTION and face protection (affordable face shield I am still looking for) from bricks, rocks, and all other debris they could find. My AO is not urban, but I could find myself crossing through urban or even semi-urban that may have restless natives. I wanted to protect my head...
So I think I want to keep a cloth cover for non-wooded events, with a face shield, and then have an elastic cover with schrim I can put on if I plan to hit the wooded areas...
Rmpl
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Post by Diz on Feb 28, 2015 19:07:23 GMT -5
Nah Hudson you're right on concerning glass. Some scout/snipers I knew out on Kali (from Pendelton of course) said rough rule of thumb was 2D camo effective to about 300m, inside that, you need 3D camo. In their case, they're concerned about other S/S teams with 40X spotting scopes. So if we interpolate here a bit, you could say that 2D camo is PROBABLY effective to around 100m with typical 10X binos, or perhaps 2-300m with the naked eye, so Panzer is pretty much right in there with his estimates. And that's if you're being a dumbass and walking out in the open (or on the trail- beat you to Winter).
Just remember, glass can point back to you. ARD's!
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 28, 2015 21:02:23 GMT -5
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 21:10:52 GMT -5
You could. But they're average and make you look even more chode than if you do your own scrim
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 21:14:26 GMT -5
Thanks for finding a good pic... I am going to ponder how to make an elastic cover that looks like that, but maybe greener for my AO... As for goofy looking... One of my thoughts about a Kevlar helmet and why I sought them out for myself, wife and teen daughter, was the videos I saw from Ukraine... I saw the need for NOGGIN PROTECTION and face protection (affordable face shield I am still looking for) from bricks, rocks, and all other debris they could find. My AO is not urban, but I could find myself crossing through urban or even semi-urban that may have restless natives. I wanted to protect my head... So I think I want to keep a cloth cover for non-wooded events, with a face shield, and then have an elastic cover with schrim I can put on if I plan to hit the wooded areas... Rmpl Not elastic. Cloth with drawstring, same as anywhere. You take the cloth off and you stick a load of crap to it. Favourite for most folk is nackered uniform because it's A) free and B) matches everything else. Ballistic is a NICE plan, but for me bump is a bare minimum. I've said it elsewhere; Concussions kill. Concussions that kill you when you could have a helmet on = you're a fucking tard and it's your own fault. Given that you can bang your head outside of combat OR in, $60 of bump helmet is worth more than any plates, in MY opinion.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 28, 2015 22:54:42 GMT -5
You could. But they're average and make you look even more chode than if you do your own scrim I didn't say I would wear one ...I'll have to try my own scrim or just leave mine painted and hope for the best.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 28, 2015 23:07:50 GMT -5
@panzer...I agree the bump helmet at the least is important. In a SHTF case scenario there won't be an ER with a CAT scan or MRI available, or neurosurgeon for that matter. Out patrolling and you take fire, your first instinct will be likely to head for cover and getting low. There are a lot of things in the woods and even urban environment that can hurt your noggin.
The other thing is eye pro. I think eye pro is just as important at ALL times. You go running in the woods and you will find a small twig or branch one day scraping or punching you in the eye. At night just walking will put you at even greater danger as you won't see many things that could hurt your eyes.
Bump helmet, eye/ear pro, gloves, knee pads (sometimes I forget these) are things I consider safety equipment. Ear pro of course you may not always have them in when patrolling.
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Post by omnivorous on Mar 1, 2015 0:57:03 GMT -5
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