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Post by Hawkeye on Feb 23, 2015 11:55:21 GMT -5
I say, resoundingly, YES. While it doesn't make you invisible, and its not supposed to, it will have a positive benefit for you. As Armed Citizens, you want every single advantage you can have, stacked in your favor, regardless of who/what the threat is. We've discussed it a lot here before, but just to briefly reiterate, camouflaged clothing is not used so as to be "invisible". What you use it for, is to make it harder for an adversary to spot you, and identify you. This may be as simple as causing his brain to take a second or two longer, to process and realize that what it just saw, was actually a human - ie., you. Camouflaged clothing breaks up your outline and is used to make you look like something OTHER than a human, to another humans eyes. He may very well see you, but his brain doesn't process the information that his eyes send it, as you being a human being. Lots of people like to argue against using camouflaged clothing, for all kinds of various reasons, most of which are completely asinine. Many don't want to use it, because they are afraid of their "friends" or the industry "kool kids" that they worship, making fun of them. Many folks like to make fun of others who do wear camouflaged clothing, because it makes them somehow feel mentally superior or so BS. Note that many of them do it on internet forums and blogs from behind a keyboard, but rarely face to face..... If your friends make fun of you for wearing camouflaged clothing while training, then I'd suggest getting new friends..... but that's just me. This stuff isn't a game, and I make no bones about it. Its often suggested to just wear solid color earth tone clothing. An argument can be made for that, in NORMAL everyday wear and activities. But when it comes time to break out my rifle, and related support gear, then things are no longer NORMAL. Solid color clothing [and for this particular discussion we're talking both rural and sub-urban environments for certain, and to a certain but lesser extent, a full urban environment] does not break up your human outline, nearly as well as a camouflage pattern clothing will. Large solid blocks of color do stand out in nature. As for what pattern to use...? Any pattern. Some work better than others, but anything is better than nothing. I think that the current Multicam offerings (Arid, Original, Tropic, Alpine) have something that pretty much cover everything in North America.
For a visual example, I'll use one of Max Velocity's video's from his Texas class he just did. I'll start it at about the 6:50 mark. Notice that as the person is on the ground, and as the camera backs up a little, it becomes very difficult to see the outline of his body, especially at about the 7:00 mark. His team mates in the background also start to become very difficult to spot. Notice, that this is with very little vegetation around. More vegetation is going to make it even better. What you DO see though, are two things. First, his solid color (appears to be foliage green) ball cap, and, his solid black rifle. A coyote brown or od green hat would work far better here (an actual camouflaged one would be even better), and this is why we camo our rifles.
Watch the whole video through, and notice how everyone's clothing works, or doesn't work. Same for their weapons. People tend to overlook that. Big black rifles stand out.
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Post by johnlangdon on Feb 23, 2015 13:02:12 GMT -5
One of the guys in this class was wearing all black and he stood out worse than sore thumb. Granted, it may be all he has right now. Not criticizing his choice, but there are just better choices based on terrain.
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Post by Hawkeye on Feb 23, 2015 13:50:59 GMT -5
Its not about criticizing, its about making observations and taking notes.
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winter
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Post by winter on Feb 23, 2015 15:22:15 GMT -5
The MC really works great in that environment.
The rest was painful to watch. The bounds took too long, use of cover was barely existent. There wasn't much cover, so, you don't assault through open fields with 3 tiny trees in them.
At least they are training.
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Post by Erick on Feb 23, 2015 19:29:09 GMT -5
Hawk:
making the human brain work harder to recognize something is key to not being seen. Thats why your point with camo is well taken.
I tihnk is a progerssive slide situation dark earthy colors that dont attract the attention of the goons but can still serve well are agood choice. but once you are at the stage of firefights and you have access to camo we should wear it.
The cap and especially the rifle stood out.
(On the other hand the OPFOR would not see the rifle from the side but point well taken)
I sometimes still train in earthy colors but my SHTF clothes are camo, multicam for woods, UCP for urban.
PA: Winter those things are known as training artifacts, those are all 100 % pure .civs and its their very first class. Considering that from looking at the various vids I think they kicked ass, especially in the later vids of day 4 and 5.
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Post by omnivorous on Feb 23, 2015 19:42:23 GMT -5
I've gone back and forth on the camo v. solid earth tones gear and clothing, and I think I'm settled on going with camo. Think about, if there is a reason to jock-up in tac gear on a regular basis, the notion of that gear not having a camo pattern as a way to make it less attention getting is moot, since its friggin' tac gear!
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winter
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Post by winter on Feb 24, 2015 3:31:37 GMT -5
PA: Winter those things are known as training artifacts, those are all 100 % pure .civs and its their very first class. Considering that from looking at the various vids I think they kicked ass, especially in the later vids of day 4 and 5. I hear ya. The other conversation about live fires pretty much states my opinion on this. If the students don't recognize adequate cover, why are they doing a live fire? I hope the line between serious training and "adventure" weekends isn't blurred by the customers need for a live fire.
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Post by Diz on Feb 24, 2015 11:14:35 GMT -5
Good example of separating "hobby" from real use. We all know the peacocks with complete sets of matching gear, which is more of a fashion statement than practical use. In this case, it becomes very apparent, in their AO, what works, and what stands out. Now I'm not gonna stand here and say everything needs to match up at this range when rounds are flying, that's retarded, but I will say that for a small 4-man team, staying unobserved in such bare-ass terrain might well depend on a little attention to detail here. Shit-can the ball caps and get something a little more appropriate. At least a camo patrol cap or boonie. What would be ideal is a cut-down ghillie head rag, just enough to break up the head and shoulders outline. And paint those black licorice sticks.
In a real operational patrol, let's assume they are waiting for low light conditions to traverse this terrain. Moving low and slow, with frequent security halts, they stand a much better chance of not being observed. So best case scenario is to avoid the firefight altogether, unless the opfor is moving in directly at your retreat. In this case, again, being unobserved, means they can pick the time and place for a hasty ambush, versus a meeting engagement. So I will say for training purposes only, they do it this way to get some experience, on a basic level. Again, I'm just amazed at what they do get done in a weekend's time. With more time, you could fine-tune the process, with improvements as we have discussed.
From Max's other writings, I think what he's trying to accomplish here is to teach the basics of the hasty attack, where one team is base of fire, and the other is maneuvering to the flank. The maneuver element is assumed to have at least a concealed if not covered route to maneuver; that is why no bounding overwatch is employed. It's a race to flank the enemy before he flanks you. At least that's what I think is going on here. Now to your point, what if the terrain doesn't support this. What if there isn't any gully/ draw/ other terrain feature to use for an unobserved approach? Me, I'd get out of there to live to fight another day. But for the purposes of teaching this technique, they're doing it anyway. If you really had to hit these guys, again like they're coming right at your retreat, then squad heavy weapons, and smoke would go along way to letting your maneuver element get to their flank. Or break contact and set up an ambush further back, along their anticipated route of advance. Another point is I think he was using a long, looping maneuver, to keep everybody away from the covering fire, for as long as possible, before coming back in and shifting the base of fire. Good safety point, with first-time students.
Not to make excuses, you bring up good points, but I can tell you from experience, it's fucking hard to teach guys this stuff for the first time on a weekend class.
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Post by johnlangdon on Feb 24, 2015 11:43:52 GMT -5
Diz - you're absolutely right. We did the exact same thing with Max in WV. What has to be realized is the guys Max is usually training do not have any military experience and usually no formal training other the square range. Given that, Max does a great job training guys in a short time with sound small unit infantry tactics.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 24, 2015 12:14:34 GMT -5
I hope the line between serious training and "adventure" weekends isn't blurred by the customers need for a live fire. Spot on winter. Firearms training is a business. Unfortunately, classes are designed to make the customer "feel good" about what they accomplished which I do understand as the instructors don't want to piss off students as they want them to come back for repeat or advanced classes. I'm not against business opportunities, just saying what I think. Many students don't know right from wrong, good training vs. okay training vs. poor training as they have only done the square range training. They think they need to be shooting 500+ rounds for a good class, but we all need the basics first. Of course, some need to have basic manipulation classes and this can be done on the square range. Also, some are just gun nuts and and don't wish to learn patrolling, break contact and med skills. They are more interested in hitting six targets in 2.0065 seconds, which to each his own. Just some random thoughts. I like what Diz is thinking.
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 24, 2015 12:17:57 GMT -5
For me, wearing even earthy coloured 'tactical/practical' clothing doesn't work all the time. Assuming I end up in the same job in the US and the school is similar, I will be wearing a suit and tie.
For 'operational' use, I think it is important that ALL clothing is practical, and ideally constructed the same. It's also important, in my mind, to think of the psychological effect. For me, I would want camo for operational tasking, but I'd want a similar set of earthy/green stuff for 'down time'. The psychological effect of distinguishing between the two is amazing. You're still capable, and would, fight in your dull simple clothes. But when you're wearing camo it's business time.
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Post by omnivorous on Feb 24, 2015 14:15:13 GMT -5
For me, wearing even earthy coloured 'tactical/practical' clothing doesn't work all the time. Assuming I end up in the same job in the US and the school is similar, I will be wearing a suit and tie. For 'operational' use, I think it is important that ALL clothing is practical, and ideally constructed the same. It's also important, in my mind, to think of the psychological effect. For me, I would want camo for operational tasking, but I'd want a similar set of earthy/green stuff for 'down time'. The psychological effect of distinguishing between the two is amazing. You're still capable, and would, fight in your dull simple clothes. But when you're wearing camo it's business time. I think that's a valid point. Putting on the camies would be a go-time switch. There is also the psychological effect upon and group of would-be looters and other ne're do wells, of seeing a group of dudes and dudettes who are switched-on and in obviously uniform standards of equipment. If everyone has done their part, their bearing and comportment, combined with the para-military image camies have, will definitely put forth a don't eff with this group kind of presentation. I'm not talking about fronting, but the real-deal image presented by serious folks, who are not going to be made victims in whatever bad times scenario this is occurring.
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 24, 2015 14:32:31 GMT -5
Yep. It also gives you something else to dress in to look less like a 'murdering babyeater' (choose your own insult) if you need to do any sort of community engagement tasks, with the option of still potentially concealed carrying and having weapons nearby whilst not looking like you're a military force that's holding everyone to gunpoint.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Feb 24, 2015 14:56:20 GMT -5
Not to make excuses, you bring up good points, but I can tell you from experience, it's fucking hard to teach guys this stuff for the first time on a weekend class. There ya go. Maybe some pre-class literature or training videos would help. Half of Infantry work is the terms/words and everybody being on the same sheet of music. I'm not trying to rip apart the training I see on the videos. With the time constraints the trainers have there's gonna be some tradeoffs.
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Post by Erick on Feb 24, 2015 17:48:48 GMT -5
Not to make excuses, you bring up good points, but I can tell you from experience, it's fucking hard to teach guys this stuff for the first time on a weekend class. There ya go. Maybe some pre-class literature or training videos would help. Half of Infantry work is the terms/words and everybody being on the same sheet of music. I'm not trying to rip apart the training I see on the videos. With the time constraints the trainers have there's gonna be some tradeoffs. There is NO adventure weekend going on, in any way shape or form. Pre Class literature exists and is often used, its called "Contact!" Texas is open terrain. When you are training people in live fire and maneuver open terrain aids the control of the training. When we train in terrain w/ lots of cover and concealment like in WV distances are reduced and students use the available cover. Using cover is an important part of MVT training and something that gets often neglected in mainstream shoot-the-berm-on-a-flat-range classes. BTW those guys HAD to do kneeling vs prone in many instances to be able to shoot over the grass and undulation of terrain. ...these vids are not instructional vids or the instructors producing a youtube vid featuring cadre running the course, like you find a lot of other schools doing. Having said that I thought the students did extremely well
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