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Post by Diz on Oct 21, 2014 7:46:16 GMT -5
Wow now this thread is going somewhere. USMC, thanks for weighing in here. Very sage comments, Devil Dog. Within the context of what will actually happen, you may wind up with a scratch team of newly-converted survivalists, with zero knowledge and skill, but 10.0 on motivation meter! Now you gotta train up these mooks. So simple, non-diagnostic drills are the order of the day. How do we distill this knowledge down into teachable chunks and get it engraved upon their brain housings. Kinda reminds me of those old ads about how you can become a certified bad-ass with our 7 sure-fire, (formerly) secret techniques. Act now, money back guarantee.
Panzer, good point, in the middle of things, if people go down, how do you maintain momentum, moving through the threat, and then linking up afterwards. With everyone charging into their line, any semblance of control is gonna go right out the window. Can't you just see a brand new 2/Lt: "On me, men, straighten it out, double arms interval..." No wonder their life expectancy was in seconds on a hot LZ. But I digress.
Winter you need to get in touch with your inner Kurtz and get your tribe up to speed up there my man. Get some bad-ass Eskimos (can I say Eskimos anymore?) and get ready for the revolooshun. (Speaking of Kurtz, did you guys hear about the SF dude they just found in Vietnam? He escaped captivity, went totally native and has been leading war bands since the end of the war, against Kymer Rouge, Chinks, and assorted other tribes. This is no shit, got it from Hawkeye's evil twin.) I am having a hard time staying focused or what?
So what to do? As a start point, I plan on studying Mosby's printed manual (you knew I had to go there, right?) and look at how he breaks down the basic skill sets and the way he teaches them. No sense re-inventing the wheel. I think we can all agree that a 12-man team would be a bare minimum. Yeah 16 or more would be better, but let's start somewhere. This gives us 3 x 4-man teams. If we can somehow scrape together 12 guys (or gals) that are willing and able to do this stuff, we can make a credible start towards retreat self-defense. Then we can implement the "badass freedom fighter in 14 days" plan (copyright USMC0331) and drive on.
But what do you do before reaching this critical mass? There are probably going to be incidents way before that point, where we will be on our own, or with another buddy, if we're lucky. So how do we pull a "Joe Nobody" and hold our own? That's the sixty four dollar question. Isolation seems to be the best choice; living low profile if stuck in the burbs.
Judging from the last two depressions (in the '30's, and the late 70's/ early 80's), things go both good and bad in an economic crisis. We see acts of incredible cruelty and kindness. But as long as the grid is up, it's hard, but doable. I see us heading for a similar situation in the late teens/early twenties. It will be hard times, with many living in poverty, but still living nonetheless. My parents, and grandparents, plus aunts and uncles all live together during the great depression of the 1930's. People huddled up into extended family groups. The tactical outlook will be most likely small groups or individuals desperate enough to steal from others. Either trained or untrained. Possibly larger gangs, but they have to be able to feed themselves, so I'd bet the groups will be kept small by starvation or attrition. Other crimes, like bank robbery and the like will be on the up-tick, just like the 30's.
Is this an epic thread drift or what?
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Oct 21, 2014 7:53:06 GMT -5
I find it almost impossible to discuss team drills without us all standing around a sand table with a plastic soldier in hand. Honestly, me too - I have no military background and need the diagrams to make it work in my head... I find myself wondering "okay- where have we netted out, here?"
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 21, 2014 10:10:49 GMT -5
If it's helpful, I can smash some VERY BASIC diagrams together for those who can't visualise because they've not seen it in action, or been in the middle of the drills/used them for real themselves?
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Oct 21, 2014 11:23:33 GMT -5
If it's helpful, I can smash some VERY BASIC diagrams together for those who can't visualise because they've not seen it in action, or been in the middle of the drills/used them for real themselves? Prob would not hurt....thanks
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 21, 2014 11:28:18 GMT -5
I'll see what I can't rack up in paint
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Oct 21, 2014 13:42:28 GMT -5
That is how the SAS apparently does it.
Panzer, I think what you said is most important. People need to know what to do so questions aren't asked and decisions not made under fire.
Solid points Diz. The going it alone is not gonna cut it. I intend to make my road the fort and the neighbors the troops.
"Intent" has a way of falling apart. but any plan is better then none.
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Post by Diz on Oct 21, 2014 16:22:02 GMT -5
My bad, I can see the diagrams from the ranger manual imprinted in my head as I'm writing this stuff. Maybe we can start referencing those drawings, get everybody on the same sheet of music here.
Panzer: would love to see your input from across the pond. If you have access to Max Velocity's books, let me know if that's pretty much the way you learned it as well.
It's really very similar to the way they "chalk talk" football plays.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 21, 2014 16:41:43 GMT -5
Not seen any of his literature, is it something sold widely enough that I might be able to pick up a copy @ Christmas?
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 21, 2014 18:00:33 GMT -5
I am struggling with the images side of this - I have no real location to host my stuff, so I'm battling google drive and losing. Apologies. If people can read this, I'll try and demo the other stuff. If not I need to find a better way to share images first. The above is the 'peel' drill I alluded to. The key is this; Blue arrow - Direction of Patrol Red Arrow - Direction patrol turns to face Enemy Green Arrow - Direction of peel, assuming you're going to peel the way you came. Red Circles - Enemy Blue Stars - Friendly locations ASAT start of ambush Green Stars - Friendly locations ASAT everyone has completed their first individual bound. Blue lines - The route between ASAT Ambush location and ASAT first bound location. Starting from the right, the first person moves - as they pass the person next to them they tap/kick (important - if you shout they might not know it's them, or they might not hear you. A good solid kick on the bottom of their foot is hard to miss) them, and they in turn get up and repeat the process. This happens until whoever is the TL decides that you're in a position to do something else (assault, retreat, manoeuvre etc.)
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Oct 21, 2014 18:01:34 GMT -5
Diz, I checked the Ranger handbook and the break contact drill in it is for squad and platoon. Same with FM 7-8.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 21, 2014 18:03:30 GMT -5
I would also like to add a link to this. NOTE THAT IT IS RECRUITS WHO ARE NOT BRILLIANT, but the basics are relatively sound. This would be useful in an ambush from the front of a single file/staggered line.
And this, perhaps a bit 'TV', but it demonstrates the principle in a bit more of a closed/real environment.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 21, 2014 19:51:54 GMT -5
Running that first drill with 4 guys (using 1M intervals & 3 shots fired) means you are moving 7M at a time and firing 12 rounds, or 84rnds/50M. That's pretty efficient IMO and can see that as a default peel if you are dumb enough travel down a path that funnels you so tight you can not shoot past your buddy who is running back.
That second video makes the most sense to me and what I'm doing, mad minute then peel, center/left/right. Problem is you need to prove to the team that it's the best idea "running to the sound of bullets" which is going against everything in their bodies. The best way to do that is to show them how effective an ambush is by having them set one up, then they will know they have no other choice.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 22, 2014 0:51:50 GMT -5
Running that first drill with 4 guys (using 1M intervals & 3 shots fired) means you are moving 7M at a time and firing 12 rounds, or 84rnds/50M. That's pretty efficient IMO and can see that as a default peel if you are dumb enough travel down a path that funnels you so tight you can not shoot past your buddy who is running back. That second video makes the most sense to me and what I'm doing, mad minute then peel, center/left/right. Problem is you need to prove to the team that it's the best idea "running to the sound of bullets" which is going against everything in their bodies. The best way to do that is to show them how effective an ambush is by having them set one up, then they will know they have no other choice. Come to Europe - We have all sorts of horrible little tracks that you can't travel down any other way (though usually in staggered file, at least!) But yeah - That is less than ideal. It develops from there, that's the first teaching stage in a series of lessons - If you have the space to get wide then you form a baseline towards the enemy first and then just play like the second one again
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Post by waffenmacht on Oct 22, 2014 6:19:58 GMT -5
Panzer, I like your drawing. We may set that up as a training exercise in the near future, as we can regularly field 10 guys.
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Post by Diz on Oct 22, 2014 7:44:58 GMT -5
OK, here's the dope from SH21-76, July 2006 edition. Chapter 6, Battle Drills, Figure 6-3, React to Ambush (both near and far illustrated). If you can find this little gem in your edition, you can see the school house solution to both a near and far ambush. It does not get into specifics of movement technique, such as the peel we're discussing here. I guess they leave that up to you. They just lay out what you're supposed to do in reaction to ambush. In this case, a right side ambush is illustrated. In a near ambush, the guys in the KZ (kill zone) immediately prone out, or take cover, and return fire. (They also throw their frags but I guess we're gonna have to figure something else out- smoke?) After frags/smoke hit, they immediately assault into the ambush. It also goes into guys not in the ambush KZ, but here's where we have to shift from big army doctrine, in that our small patrol will most likely all be in the KZ.
For the far ambush, again guys in the KZ take cover/prone out, and return fire, attempting to obtain fire superiority. Those not in the KZ, attempt to flank the ambush, using the guys in the KZ as a base of fire, and finally assaulting through the ambush, consolidating with the base of fire. Again, hard to pull off with 4 guys.
So here's the take-away on this. The big army doctrine is assuming at least 8 guys (in the ranger manual, and a lot more in FM7-8) are available for this drill. It is based on the tenant that you have guys in and out of the KZ, which for us probably won't be the case. Therefor some modification is in order.
I think the spec ops stuff illustrated here is more suited to our purposes, especially the 4-man call sign. Specifically, the peel seems better suited to our purposes than buddy team rushes?
So looking at Panzer's illustration, I think the peel has a lot to offer your small team. It maximizes firepower while moving your team out of the KZ. It is pretty simple to understand, learn, and pull off. Kicking the guy's boot as you move by is an excellent control measure. (like I said, the Brits are no dummies)
SO in response to Winter's question (finally):
Near ambush:
Shots ring out. Guys in the KZ (all of us) immediately prone out. TL yells out "ambush right", we all re-orient to right and return fire. TL (or others) throws "grenade", in our case let's say smoke. After "greande" hits, we assault on-line through the ambush position. Consolidate if position is secured. Continue to move through if not, evade, and link up at designated rally point.
Far ambush:
Shots ring out. Guys all prone out. TL yells "ambush right". We all re-orient and return fire. On signal, we displace with a "peel right". After enough bounds to clear the KZ, TL decides whether to assault through ambush, or break contact. If we assault, TL calls out the play, and move forward, by fire and maneuver, until we are in a good position to close the deal. At that point TL gets us on-line for final assault through ambush position. Move through position, consolidate, prep for counter-assault (if any opfor left). If we break contact, TL calls out play, and we move back, with fire and maneuver, until TL calls for consolidation. We form 360, re-organize, and see if we are being pursued. If not, TL gives point new azimuth, and we move out again.
Some notes. If you look in Ch. 5, Patrols, Fig 5-5 Deliberate Ambush, you will see the school house layout of a deliberate ambush, which for our purposes, is the worst-case scenario. You will notice that security teams are laid in on both flanks, and the command group is probably tasked with providing security to the rear as well. So when the ambush is sprung, and you are trying to maneuver out of the KZ, you will probably run into one of these "stop groups". Depending on the size of the unit, this could be 1 guy or 2-4. SO if you decide to assault the ambush, keep this in mind. If these guys know what they're doing, they have a pretty good idea of what you're gonna try and do. They aren't just gonna let you roll up their flank without resistance.
Again, for our purposes, you gotta figure every body is in the kill zone. There won't be any maneuver element that can flank the enemy while you lay down fire. This means, you gotta get off the "X". In a near ambush, your best chance is to assault right into them. Here is where some PT, and basic H2H training will make you money. It should be obvious this is a really bad sit to be avoided at all costs, by moving low and slow, like a recon team, not ditty-bopping along at a normal pace.
In a far ambush, I think your best choice is to break contact, if at all possible, and then decide whether to re-engage, or not. The peel method is looking real good here. After clearing the KZ, you decide whether to move in, or continue to break contact. This would depend on how close you are to your retreat, and what plan you have worked out with those back at base. If you think they are moving into your base, then you might consider setting up an ambush position, further down the road, on their likely route of advance. Ideally hit them with an L" shaped ambush, with you guys outside the wire being the short leg of the "L". This puts them in a cross-fire, and hopefully keeps you out of "friendly" fire. Or you may need to get back inside the wire to "man the wall" and/or escort the evac plan.
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