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Post by waffenmacht on Oct 19, 2014 10:22:38 GMT -5
I was always taught when ambushed to run through the ambush. But then, I am a Texan.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Oct 19, 2014 11:39:29 GMT -5
I was always taught when ambushed to run through the ambush. But then, I am a Texan. We can call this maneuver "Texicide".
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 19, 2014 11:53:09 GMT -5
winter;Definitely agree that some of you are going to be shot, or exploded. There are, generally, 2 methods (There is a third - Flares...) of initiating an ambush; Tripwire + Claymore/IED and Gunfire (Ideally you site your heavy weapons centrally for maximum coverage, and they initiate the contact). And no, if that's what they're saying then it does sound odd, and goes against everything I've heard too Right to left moving targets are much harder to hit than front to back movers. Generally this is how we play; Assuming you are travelling forward, and the assault is from the side, there are 2 options; Push forward, or return the way you came. We assume everyone does standard RTR (Even if it's one round and then straight to the ground) and is now facing the enemy - then EVERYONE returns fire. If you are going left, the right hand man gets up and moves left and moves PAST the remainder of the people in your group (Reverse for if you decide to go right). As they pass the next man you kick their foot. When you are kicked, you get up and run too. Keep the bounds short and the weight of fire high, and it works down to groups of 4. The key is to MOVE - If no one is firing, and you are the next man to go; GO. If you stay where you are you are dead, if you move you.... might still be dead, but inaction will guarantee it. (I say this because I'm assuming that when ONE of you gets into PROPER cover, you're all about to start getting into proper cover and you're now transitioning from break contact to whatever the next drill is (re-org, QBOs for an assault, getting on comms to someone etc...)) The reasoning behind this; As you get further forward/back (to the enemies left/right of arc) you are automatically making some of their weapons ineffective (because their own blokes get in the way, you close the angle they have to aim at you) - even if they reposition, that time they're spending changing position is time they're not shooting at you. IF like winter's diagram you get assaulted frontally, you form a baseline and then peel left/right. The ONLY time you would do what's in that picture, is if you were ambushed walking down a track that you can't get off for whatever reason (hedgerow either side, alleyways etc). I n that scenario you're basically going to fire 2-3 rounds and then peel inwards (because on a path you're in staggered file, not single file, right?) and repeat till you get out of sight, or to somewhere you CAN leave the path, then return to peeling left and peeling right. There might be other ways that are right, but I KNOW this works down to 4 guys for most break contacts (Ambush or not - Sometimes it's advantageous to break a fireteam away during a planned assault and this is an excellent way of moving them with (theoretically) 7 guns giving cover at any one time. On a scale of 4 men this DOES rely on higher rates of fire, but you're aiming to drain your magazine JUST as you're about to move (or mostly, and then just do a magazine change to make sure you've got a full mag till you're up again...)
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Oct 19, 2014 13:48:00 GMT -5
I was always taught when ambushed to run through the ambush. But then, I am a Texan. You assault close ambushes not far ambushes. What determines close is if it is within hand grenade range.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 19, 2014 14:36:02 GMT -5
The first person to recreate this with any US state and the UK can go stab themselves in the eye. Before anyone gets any ideas, winter.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Oct 19, 2014 20:39:03 GMT -5
Hahaha, The island I live on may be as big as Eire'.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 19, 2014 22:56:09 GMT -5
Panzer, If I'm reading you right and using a 4 man team @ 10M intervals, you are doing an "peel" and making your dashes 40 meter and kicking the boot of the first guy 10 meters away as you start?
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 20, 2014 0:50:07 GMT -5
Panzer, If I'm reading you right and using a 4 man team @ 10M intervals, you are doing an "peel" and making your dashes 40 meter and kicking the boot of the first guy 10 meters away as you start? Basically, yes.
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Dave R
Junior Member
Posts: 460
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Post by Dave R on Oct 20, 2014 2:25:52 GMT -5
Really all depends on location and type of ambush.
L shaped ambush will have to be handled differently than a line ambush. I'm a fan of the same method Panzer mentioned for most cases of an ambush.
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Post by Diz on Oct 20, 2014 5:53:58 GMT -5
OK Winter I'm tracking with you now. Semantics getting in the way here.
You bring up a very good point, in that most schools do teach you to leapfrog back, right in the enemy's "fire sack" as it were. I like the method of displacing sideways (as we so poorly illustrated), where you are pushing out right or left as you fall back. So we're on the same page here. You were so right to question authority on that, but I'm not surprised at the response. The "tactical" instructors at Quantico were just as close-minded, and brooked no quarrel with their doctrine.
Very good point on the near/far ambush thing. Although some do not differentiate, I too agree that it all depends on hand grenade range. Although in our case, we may have a hard time sourcing them, so smoke grenades may be our only option. I was not very specific about distance to enemy in my example. I was ASSuming what you would term a "far" ambush, where we could book on out of there. Close in, yeah, you may have no other choice but to assault through, although at night (where again I ASSume we will be operating) it may be confusing enough to leapfrog back away from it. Or at least to a flank.
There are just some inherent risks here. With a small, 4-man team you don't have a lot of combat power to be assaulting with, like I might be inclined to do with a full light infantry platoon. Although it's a very ballsy move, 4 guys going right at an ambush line can be a very rough move as well. But, as you say, it may be your only choice.
If we get ambushed at point blank range, we're in deep shit. If just one guy goes down, you're in a world of trouble. If several or all of you are hit, it's not looking real good for the home team. Gonna be practically impossible to break contact. No easy answers here. It just may be your time.
For a smaller, 4-man team, I like the peel as well. It's simple, non-diagnostic, and works well. I like the flow to it, keeps things moving. Although again, I like the idea of moving off at an angle to the contact, versus falling straight back from it.
I have always liked "button hooking" after a contact as well, which is related to your idea of getting off the direct line of the enemy's "firesack". If they are pursuing you, it gets you off the direct line of march (that is, your last known direction), and gives you the option of melting away, or ambushing them back.
A lot depends on the specific situation. No one answer for everything we may come across.
The issue here is teaching something to your own civilian self-defense group. Theory is just fine, but you need a starting point some where. We have guys that are weapons trained, but ignorant in the ways of bush tactics. So we are starting at ground zero here. We are in the early stages of learning individual movement and are just now getting into small unit tactics, such as reacting to ambush or breaking contact. Just learning to move, as a unit, takes a lot of training. We are keeping it simple for starters.
Great discussion here guys.
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Post by Diz on Oct 20, 2014 6:22:57 GMT -5
Just had another thought. We are talking about infantry tactics, where the ambush may be supported with belt-fed machine guns on the short leg of an "L" shaped ambush, and such. We all know the doctrine, about initiating the ambush with claymores, automatic weapons, fire, etc. And we all know the response, with hand grenades and the like. All well and good.
But what about a WROL scenario, where we may be conducting a security patrol around our retreat. What is your most likely encounter here? Is it a full light infantry platoon, with all the goodies we're talking about here? Or is it more likely a band of looters, equipped with misc. weaponry? And, what is their likely level of training? I mean granted, you could run into a bunch of guys this spun up, in weapons and tactics, but then again, you never might. SO... taking a middle ground approach, how would you train your group to react to ambush, both near and far, using the troops and weapons available to you?
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 20, 2014 6:38:46 GMT -5
Diz Totally agree with you there lad. Choices should not have to be made at times like this - I think the key to this is 'actions on', to be discussed before every patrol. If the basics are sone well, everything else comes together nicely. Can we clarify button hooking with a pretty picture, please? I think as far as different schools go, sometimes when you've a military SO big, people sometimes teach differently to BE different, and justify having a seperate school. As far as response: I beleive the response I outlined is valid regardless of size of ambush, or training/equipment of assaulters: If they're good, and we're honest, you're all dead. Quality troops and gear = Ambushee's shouldn't even have chance to RTR. Most anti-ambush drills only work against proportionally smaller groups, or poorly trained folk. No good ambush fails. I would carry one out the same way as I would if I had 4 blokes or 400: 50% firepower central, with 25% at each cut-off (L/R) This is the most effective way to do it without an L shape, but I've never seen an L-Ambush. They're very directional and leave you open & I think traditionally we shy away from using them. I can see a use, but mostly I'd prefer linear ambushes.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 20, 2014 6:44:34 GMT -5
to extend and cover points from your second post, Diz: I figure if they're untrained, you still treat them like they're good. The worse they are, the better this sort of stuff works. I think the only time changing tactics is a thing is if there is FORMAL differences, and you are planning for a set of EF TTPs. You can't cover everything, so either cover the worst threat, the most likely, or if you're capable of quickly responding, with decisive action, maybe try and cover both. It's like Protection > Mobility > Firepower > Protection. Except swap out Probable EF action > Highest threat EF action > Task completion
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Post by Diz on Oct 20, 2014 9:57:05 GMT -5
OK bottom line, if you are a small 4-man team caught in a near ambush, life expectancy is not good. There's no arguing that point.
But I would beg to differ on the amount of troops and weapons available. You cannot just operate the same way as a light infantry platoon when you are a 4-man call sign. Especially when you don't have automatic weapons, claymores, grenades, etc. Yes the concepts may be the same, or very similar, but how you execute them may be entirely different.
My "actions on" drills may be entirely different for a small 4-man team, patrolling the retreat perimeter, than what I would do as recon team in the military. I cannot just ASSume the opfor is armed and dangerous, and fire up any intruders coming my way, just for starters. Then, once I do determine I had certified bad guys, I have to determine just exactly what I'm up against. Can they shoot? Can they actually maneuver as a unit? Or is this just a collection of random individuals that will scatter to the wind? And, again I don't have automatic weapons and explosives to play with.
So how does this all affect how I will respond in an actual WROL sit?
First of all, as Winter (and myself) has said, a small 4-man team is relying on stealth as the primary weapon. We are going to AVOID all the shit as much as possible. We will also be moving low and slow, to see and hear the other guy first. So our movement technique becomes our first line of defense against being caught in ambush. If it's a chance contact, then it's who discovers they other guy first, and sets up a hasty ambush; this tilts the odds in our favor. If it's a deliberate ambush patrol we stumble into, then it's worst-case scenario, and we may be screwed. But we may also be able to use our small size and mobility to escape the kill zone, if luck is on our side that day. Or your goose may be cooked.
But again, let's take a look at how this might fit into a plausible scenario. If we are patrolling low and slow around our retreat perimeter, chances are any contact will be either a chance contact, where we both see each simultaneously, or due to the fact that we are probably moving slower with frequent security halts, we see them first, and set up a hasty ambush. Someone MAY see us first and set up, but in all probability it will not be a perfect ranger school ambush, complete with belt fed on the short "L", claymores down the middle, and security on the flanks and back. Although this is the worst case scenario, the probability of it happening is very low, IMHO.
When on patrol, we frequently "button-hook" on our back trail to make sure nobody is tailing you. It looks like a big Shepard's crook laid out on the ground. You simply patrol back around in a circular fashion until you are back parallel to your back trail. Sit in hasty ambush position, and wait. So in this instance, if I was seen moving straight north, I would button hook back around to the east, south, then west, until I intersected my original line of travel north. The terrain will dictate how big of a loop you need to pull this off.
Bottom line, I think we have to consider how we may have to operate, and how is that different from how we did it active duty. So I ask again, what would you guys do in a WROL situation? You have 4 guys out on night patrol. You have AR's with 7 mags each. You have Glocks with 4 mags each. That's it. You are fired up in near ambush. You estimate 8-10 rifles/pistols of various sorts, all semi auto. You are approx. 200m from the retreat itself. You have comms with base camp, and 4 more guys available as a QRF (but they're sleeping right now). They will all have the same weapons and equipment as you guys (when they get their shit together). It's the middle of the night, which means it's pretty dark out in the woods, even with some moonlight. You have lots of cover from trees all around. You estimate the enemy is about 10m away on your right flank, according to muzzle flashes. What would you do?
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 20, 2014 11:24:14 GMT -5
I'm going to assume the following in SHTF. I will likely have 2-4 on patrol with me that have little experience, just what I can teach them in a day.
Patrolling the property, slow and deliberate patrol with much observation is the key.
Any force that tries to ambush is likely to even less trained and equipped and should be assaulted if close in a mad minute or bounded away from using Panzers method (although those are long bounds) and speed of vacating is more important than being a better target,considering the hopefully poor shooter that is assaulting.
If they got skilz you are dead in a close ambush.
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