winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Oct 16, 2014 1:45:45 GMT -5
Man, I'm glad I live here.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 16, 2014 3:15:12 GMT -5
Don't get too comfy, they shipped some illegAls to AK once already.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 16, 2014 10:13:47 GMT -5
WTF? Another in my long list of things that prove willful sabotage of the USA. He's said that at least three times in interviews. Yeah. To paraphrase him, he states that by restricting commercial flights to and from the heavily affected countries in West Africa, will reduce the ability of aid workers to get into those countries to help, and will make the infected peoples more desperate and presumably they'll all flee to the US, or some other bullshit. Watch for when Ebola gets a foothold in South and Central America, then the shits really going to get real for the US. I'm hypothesising here, but bear with me; If you stop people coming in from West Africa, they're just going to fly via other countries. If they fly via other countries you're not going to be monitoring as much as you would direct from WA. Ergo, maintaining those flights but MONITORING them (and the passengers both prior to and after the flight) is a better choice? Forgive me, I haven't seen the interview - I don't get American TV. I might not have seen something that means my Hypothesis is right. Just saying - Even people like POTUS who make decisions don't see the WHOLE picture - Why is someone explaining (usually in a very simple way, for 'dummies', on the news) something in such a way that makes it sound like the government is trying to screw the country? Surely the trick to that would be to do it secretively?
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Post by omnivorous on Oct 16, 2014 12:01:16 GMT -5
Some other countries already have, along with some airlines voluntarily not conducting flights into those countries; for the sake of their own aircrews. It would take a coordinated effort, with solid leadership to make sure all participants are towing the line, but I don't trust that to be properly done by this government with its current leadership. The countries which are heavily affected need to be quarantined, its that simple. The organizations involved in trying to treat it are not being forthcoming with all of the details about this strain, particularly how the rate of lethality had been bumped up to 70%.
Personally, I think the politic class in the US is trying to avoid the issue as much as possible, so as to not tip their hand to the citizenry, by revealing just how incompetent and over their heads they are, when it comes to doing anything to stop it. Case in point, another gem from the CDC head, (paraphrasing of course) he stated in hearings just today that bus passengers shouldn't worry about contracting Ebola from a fellow passenger, but that those who have contracted Ebola shouldn't take transportation such as buses.
Also, there have been politicians who are attempting to benefit from the situation by stating there needs to be an expansion of government healthcare services, and as a result of spending cuts from the opposing party, has put us in a position worse of than the country otherwise would be. The people in charge are incompetent con artists, and they can't let a legitimate crisis be known, otherwise their incompetence will be highlighted right before a major election.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 16, 2014 12:07:27 GMT -5
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Post by Diz on Oct 17, 2014 7:01:18 GMT -5
What Onivorous just said is the most truthful comment I've seen on line for a long time. The "world governments" will never get their shit together long enough to actually do anything useful, like quarantine an infectious disease. Our own government, in particular, has proven itself to be absolutely useless in a real crisis. We can endlessly debate the whys and wherefores, but in the end, it doesn't matter. What matters is to realize you are on your own. Nobody is going to rescue you from any crisis situation, at least at the federal (and probably state) level. If you truly understand the implications of this, then get prepared.
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Post by Hawkeye on Oct 17, 2014 7:49:56 GMT -5
At first, I thought much of the issues we are seeing, were due to ignorance. Then, as things went on, It starting to look more like incompetence. Now, I find myself truly wondering if it isn't intentional.......
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Post by Diz on Oct 17, 2014 7:55:01 GMT -5
Here is an update from Dallas. What it is, and what it isn't. What it is, is a highly infectious disease, spread by direct contact with bodily fluids, such as blood, vomit, and diarrhea. What it isn't, is an airborne-spread disease. So while this is a very serious, dangerous outbreak, it is not the end of the world as we know it, just yet.
I will just lay out some facts and try to keep the editorializing to a minimum (at least try). Hospitals around the country are totally unprepared for this kind of crisis. There is no real protocol in place. There are no facilities to handle this kind of infectious disease.
When it is finally figured out what is needed (well sort of), there are no structures, equipment, and supplies readily available to set up "decontamination stations", along military lines, to handle people entering and leaving contaminated areas.
There is no set of "PPE" specifically designated for this disease (well there is, but it's a moving target).
There are no procedures in place for cleaning up contaminated waste generated from treating infected patients.
There are no procedures in place for handling and storing contaminated waste.
There are no procedures in place for transporting contaminated waste.
There are no procedures in place for destroying contaminated waste.
As you can see, there is a huge problem with the contaminated waste, among other things.
This particular hospital (and hospitals around the country) has been scrambling to find the resources to handle this kind of situation. In particular, they are looking for "clean rooms" or changing rooms, where personnel can jock up for entry, and, undress, decontam for exit, for contaminated areas. They're just not readily available.
The "PPE" (personal protective equipment) for this sit is not clearly known. For example, one hospital spent days trying to source the CDC recommended hood, only to find the CDC just changed the requirement, without notice or explanation, to another hood. Right in the middle of a crisis. So it's hard to jock up when you can't find the recommended equipment, and then you're told the requirement just changed.
This disease generates a lot of bodily fluids. No separate procedures were in place for clean up crews. The blood, puke, and shit was just mopped up with the same equipment, and cleaning solutions. No one told them any different. The stuff had to get cleaned up. And there was nothing else to do it with. Where do you think all that waste water ended up? Sealed in 55 gal drums for hazmat pick-up?
What do you do with huge piles of sheets, towels, wipes, and PPE? They were put in rubber totes (yeah, like you buy at Home Depot) and stacked in storage rooms. No body had any idea what to do with it.
How do you get rid of it? The regular waste management vendors balked at touching the stuff. So it continued to pile up. When finally transported, the air cargo folks wouldn't touch it. Even though it was completely sealed (according to government regs).
After it was transported, no dump would take it. In short, nobody wanted anything to do with it.
So as you can see, this was a complete and total clusterfuck. Now do you want to blame one particular hospital for all this? Kinda just the luck of the draw. There is absolutely no hospital ready for this kind of outbreak.
So I'm sorry I just can't help myself. Where was the federal government in all this? Where was CDC in getting to the scene and providing the leadership to handle this kind of outbreak? Where are the SOP's for this, where are the resources to set up containment, protection, and handling of contaminated waste? If this isn't the kind of thing that needs to be led, and coordinated at a national level, I don't know what else it would be.
There is a total leadership vacuum here. While trying to meddle in just about every aspect of our lives, when it come to something truly important, the nanny state is totally useless in responding to a threat.
Have you got that figured out now?
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 17, 2014 8:10:27 GMT -5
Genuine question;
Give how much shitting money seems to be spent on healthcare system; How the shit do you not have this kind of thing in place? Our government has stood up 2 hospitals (having only had 1 patient) and they're practising dealing with this stuff already. Our medical teams (especially in inner city london) are already trained for this sort of thing because of 'terrorism' and the whole dirty bomb thing. If anything, they're 'over the top' equipped. We've sent a hospital ship to sierra leone, and there's a full field hospital going out as well as construction workers to set stuff up in West Africa - Obama appears to be calling for other countries to do more, but SO FAR I haven't seen the US do anything external to it's own borders.
Fuck, our NHS is underfunded and creaking, but at least because it's government run there is stuff in place for things like this. THIS is my argument for a good, properly designed National Health System. I know what you've ended up with politically claims to be it, but I would suggest that's because too many people (generally the rich) oppose what it SHOULD BE (Because... profit.)
It worries me that the TSA exists and have stopped.... how many threats? and saved how many lives? But there is nothing in place for something that is far more likely to kill, and will kill a lot more people (and I'm not talking just about Ebola. I'm talking about viruses and bacterial infection in general...)
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Post by Diz on Oct 17, 2014 8:31:13 GMT -5
I think it's in place to protect the government infrastructure, just not for all us commoners. The military is prepared, more or less. Any good size Police or Fire dept has had NBC exercises, which includes PPE, and proper decon procudeures. Even with all that, in this case, just the sheer volume of hazmat waste can overcome your protective efforts.
It's not a question of free market or social medicine. It's larger than that. It's a question of what exactly is the role of government in our lives here?
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 17, 2014 8:43:31 GMT -5
See, for me, the government SHOULD provide healthcare. Doctors SHOULD be payed well, because what they do is very important. HOWEVER; The Hippocratic oath doesn't say 'Do no harm, unless they can't afford it.' I can excuse slow treatment, and I fully accept private services alongside an NHS (We have that, as it stands). But the role of the government is to SUPPORT people. At a basic minimum, I would like to think 4 key things are a MINIMUM that governments should provide (For 'free' [or discounted appropriate to individual circumstances], obviously this involves some taxation, somewhere);
Shelter (Housing, in some form) Sustenance (Food, Water) Education (Literacy and Numeracy, as a minimum) Physical and Mental wellbeing (Preventative and reactive healthcare)
Prisoners get at least that much, in most developed countries. The free should get that as a starting point.
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Post by Diz on Oct 17, 2014 8:58:31 GMT -5
Panzer, please don't take this the wrong way, but your whole country is not even as big as one of our mid-sized states. Your healthcare system may be superior to ours because it's a lot smaller and less complex than what we have to deal with. (And in a similar vein, your military is superb, but your whole MOD is not even as big as just our Marine Corps.) Take all of Europe as a whole, put them all under one healthcare system, and then let me know how that works out! You would have decision gridlock, just as we do.
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Post by Diz on Oct 17, 2014 9:08:47 GMT -5
The larger issue here is what exactly is the role of government? If we all agree to pool our resources, as a common country, then what can we reasonably expect to get back in return? To provide for a common defense. Fairly simple concept a couple of centuries ago. Now that must include nuclear, biological, and chemical defense. I think it's obvious the federal government has failed to provide adequate defense in this case. You can debate why this is all day long. Doesn't matter. You're not going to change a bloody thing. The point is the government is broken, and I don't think it's going to be fixed. You can debate that also all day long. But I think we're too far gone to right the ship.
So what to do. You can sit around pissing and moaning about it all day on the internet. Or you can get off your ass and do something to protect yourself and your loved ones.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Oct 17, 2014 20:22:32 GMT -5
What Onivorous just said is the most truthful comment I've seen on line for a long time. The "world governments" will never get their shit together long enough to actually do anything useful, like quarantine an infectious disease. Our own government, in particular, has proven itself to be absolutely useless in a real crisis. We can endlessly debate the whys and wherefores, but in the end, it doesn't matter. What matters is to realize you are on your own. Nobody is going to rescue you from any crisis situation, at least at the federal (and probably state) level. If you truly understand the implications of this, then get prepared. The govs are to busy with croninsm. Look closely at the Ebola Czar that was posted. Now, you might think he's a world recognized leading expert in infectious diseases....well, not so much. But, he can help a solar panel company get a HUGE US gov bailout. www.weeklystandard.com/articles/six-reasons-panic_816387.html?page=1When is America say enough is enough? Gotta go watch American idol repeats....lol
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Oct 17, 2014 20:30:32 GMT -5
@panzer, nowhere in our Constitution does it say that our government should provide healthcare or shelter to ALL citizens. What has happened is The Constitution has been reinterpreted over the years and it is becoming the norm that gov will provide everything. Education, healthcare, food, shelter, jobs....cell phones, free internet....
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