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Post by panzer0170 on Jun 22, 2014 16:16:42 GMT -5
They're simple. They don't run out of ammunition. Lot's of weapons are fitted with a bayonet lug. Some of them are (questionably) good as everyday knives, wirecutters etc. As a prepared citizen, where do they fit into the scheme of things as a tool/weapon? DO they fit? What are their limitations? (For instance, whilst I'd quite like one if I truly had to defend my life and that of my family, in close spaces where I might not have time to fuss with magazine changes etc... I'd HATE to have to explain away to a judge why I had one fitted, even though in my head I've already justified it's use and when I'd consider it). One of the reasons I ask is because if you're on a budget it appears the quickest and easiest way to get prepared is to get a decent old battle rifle of some kind, and the chances area it's either going to be 5-10rd semi auto or bolt-action. Magazine changes are probably not much of a thing, and assuming budget you might not have afforded yourself a pistol. Proper, heavy wooden firearm with a blade/pike on one end affords you a good solid weapon when your ammo runs dry, or the enemy gets too close. Please, discuss
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Post by omnivorous on Jun 22, 2014 17:17:59 GMT -5
My problem with bayonets, is that they severely limit ones choices of muzzle device. For AKs, you're stuck with either a slant brake or '74-style device, and for AR platforms, its pretty much the A2 birdcage for you.
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Paul
New Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2014 21:30:06 GMT -5
If you're on a budget, the SKS and Mosin M44 both have bayonets that are always available and they are inexpensive. As far as judges go, I hope one would understand if you bayoneted someone who was shooting at you and you had no ammo left...assuming they attacked you first.
AK bayonets are very tough and can be used as survival knives. I too regret that I can no longer "fix bayonets" now that I put a flash suppressor on my SGL 21.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Jun 23, 2014 1:03:33 GMT -5
I don't think bayonets justify their weight. The few bayonets that make suitable fieldcraft tools are an exception.
As a last ditch weapon, any knife will do. For the weight of a knife, as a weapon, you could carry more ammo or a small handgun.
I roll knife heavy myself. They are tools that hopefully justify their weight.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jun 23, 2014 13:11:18 GMT -5
My problem with bayonets, is that they severely limit ones choices of muzzle device. For AKs, you're stuck with either a slant brake or '74-style device, and for AR platforms, its pretty much the A2 birdcage for you. Other than the muzzle device issue (Because I'm relatively happy with the A2 birdcage. I understand it's not the best, but I'm also used to it and haven't had better, so I'm at the advantage of not missing something I've never had...) what are your thoughts?
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Post by panzer0170 on Jun 23, 2014 13:17:34 GMT -5
I don't think bayonets justify their weight. The few bayonets that make suitable fieldcraft tools are an exception. As a last ditch weapon, any knife will do. For the weight of a knife, as a weapon, you could carry more ammo or a small handgun. I roll knife heavy myself. They are tools that hopefully justify their weight. I've never held an M7/9 or other US issue style Bayonet, but the UK issue one really isn't that heavy, and if you set it up right will slide into a sheath set up between 2 pouches, taking up approximately zero space, and for very little noticeable weight penalty. Are the US issue types noticeably heavy? For actual knife work I'd prefer something cheap, easily replaceable but of decent quality (one of the simpler Mora knives are ideal!) and for heavier work a hatchet or perhaps a machete/khukri (environment specific there, really). I have no experience with fighting with a knife, all I know is if I have to roll with one I'd like as large a reach as I can, and that's why I'm trying to dig down into peoples philosophy of use and good/bad points about them PS Cheers ALL for any input
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Post by omnivorous on Jun 23, 2014 15:55:02 GMT -5
My problem with bayonets, is that they severely limit ones choices of muzzle device. For AKs, you're stuck with either a slant brake or '74-style device, and for AR platforms, its pretty much the A2 birdcage for you. Other than the muzzle device issue (Because I'm relatively happy with the A2 birdcage. I understand it's not the best, but I'm also used to it and haven't had better, so I'm at the advantage of not missing something I've never had...) what are your thoughts? I've never served, since I have a medical condition I can't get a waiver for; I tried for two straight years, so its pretty much a done deal. However, I was in the Army ROTC while in college, and spent enough time with beat to absolute hell M-16A2s, to get proficient with the weapon system. The birdcage works, it does, but there are other muzzle devices which work better. I don't own an AR platform rifle, a sin living in the US if shtfroflmaoteotiwatki happens, but I do have an AK-74 clone, and I've been eye-ing one of those DTK "Bulgarian 4-piece" muzzle devices for a while. I like how it reduces the flash a lot and heavily controls and directs the muzzle blast directly forward. For responsible armed civilians, an out of ammo scenario is the time to beat feet out of Dodge. So, unless I'm inside of my bug-out homestead, or a family or team member's life is at risk, the rationale to defend a particular patch of dirt isn't as high as if I was holding off the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. Having a bayonet is good for close quarters fighting, since you already have a bladed weapon out, but they do also add absolutely useless weight to the front of one's rifle when the likelihood of H2H is minimal, they add a few extra inches to the length of the rifle one must be cognizant of, and must already be mounted to be of use beyond what a plain ol' fightin' knife is already capable of being. Most, nearly all, hand-to-hand fights start already in contact distance, so its not like you'll have time to draw a bayonet and mount it, when you'd be better of drawing it and putting it into immediate use. With higher capacity, and much more rapidly reload-able firearms, bayonets are on the edge of obsolescence. They come from a time when firearms were excruciatingly slow to reload, and the likelihood of hand-to-hand combat was very high, and often the way one infantry force would break and route the other; after sufficient artillery bombardment. I'm not going to go as far as to say they are absolutely useless in a modern battlefield, but that's just it, I believe what use they still have is for soldiers, not responsible armed citizens.
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Post by Ivarr Bergmann on Jun 23, 2014 17:02:26 GMT -5
Its personal choice. No one can make up the decision for another. Situations, tactics and strategies will differ. I personally will not carry one. I have enough to carry I cant justify it. Ive tried to add it to my kit and there just isn't room, but that's another conversation if you need to discuss a need. In many situations a bayonet could be useful, especially in a situation where you may fall back on deterrence as a weapon, especially in high populations areas where you could never carry enough ammo. Most normal people will shit at the sight of a military style weapon, put a knife on the end and most sane ppl will go the other way fast and offer no static..It can be helpful in dealing with dogs or other feral animals as well or in conservation of ammo or silence.....
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currahee
New Member
"Stands Alone"
Posts: 151
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Post by currahee on Jun 23, 2014 22:01:03 GMT -5
When I was issued a bayonet it stayed in the bottom of my ruck. It was a sensitive item (means if you lose it you're in trouble) and to easy to lose. I had a pilot survival to use and a folding Buck- much better knives.
Now, my free float tube extends well past my gas port, so a bayonet can't even go on the end of my rifle.
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Post by omnivorous on Jun 24, 2014 15:00:11 GMT -5
When I was issued a bayonet it stayed in the bottom of my ruck. It was a sensitive item (means if you lose it you're in trouble) and to easy to lose. I had a pilot survival to use and a folding Buck- much better knives. Now, my free float tube extends well past my gas port, so a bayonet can't even go on the end of my rifle. I completely forgot about free float tubes!
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Jun 24, 2014 20:53:23 GMT -5
I don't think bayonets justify their weight. The few bayonets that make suitable fieldcraft tools are an exception. As a last ditch weapon, any knife will do. For the weight of a knife, as a weapon, you could carry more ammo or a small handgun. I roll knife heavy myself. They are tools that hopefully justify their weight. I've never held an M7/9 or other US issue style Bayonet, but the UK issue one really isn't that heavy, and if you set it up right will slide into a sheath set up between 2 pouches, taking up approximately zero space, and for very little noticeable weight penalty. Are the US issue types noticeably heavy? For actual knife work I'd prefer something cheap, easily replaceable but of decent quality (one of the simpler Mora knives are ideal!) and for heavier work a hatchet or perhaps a machete/khukri (environment specific there, really). I have no experience with fighting with a knife, all I know is if I have to roll with one I'd like as large a reach as I can, and that's why I'm trying to dig down into peoples philosophy of use and good/bad points about them PS Cheers ALL for any input The only USA made bayonet ever issued that was worth a shit is the new Jarhead one. This one. It's heavy, but, I understand it is useful. Weight is not my primary issue with a bayonet. It's not multipurpose in most instances. The above one is. The M9 before that, while indestructible, was useless. The current Brit one is an abortion and it is not that light. The handle is the flash hider for the SA80. You shoot through the knifes guard. I'm not kidding. If you wanna talk about knives generally as gear, I'll fucking talk your ears off. I've been a knife groupie since I lost a Old Timer Mini Trapper that father had given me an hr earlier. I've been carrying and using a knife for almost 40 yrs and have been making them as a hobby for 20+. I have 300 hrs or so sword/axe/large knife/spear/shield training, 100 hrs of theatrical sword fighting training and general militant knife guy. Modern firearms do not mate up well with a bayonet. They don't turn into a spear like WWI weapons did.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jun 25, 2014 15:12:03 GMT -5
@ Winter: I've heard of it, the OK3C or something similar? I do like a bit of weight to a blade, but that's a personal preference. The UK bayonet is pretty good as a bayonet (worked nicely on pigs, and has proven at least a psychological edge, when combined with angry soldiers with no other option...[Iraq, and I beleive the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders*]), but f*ck all use as a knife, and less use than a leatherman as wire cutters (though they DO work). Best feature is the bottle opener on the scabbard (most used part!)
I completely accept that they're not ideal, at all. My thoughts are simply if something goes bump in the night, or I have a few seconds to get to a rifle and 1-2 magazines, it'd be nice to have an edged weapon with a bit of reach, and that I've had SOME training with.
A question you may or may not be able to answer: The new bayonet is designed and compatible with the M4/16, but doesn't work with the Tavor... But the Tavor was designed to work with the M9/M7 bayonets. What is the feature that makes the two incompatible?
Cheers,
Panz
* "U.K. troops used them during the 1982 Falklands War. In May 2004, according to the U.S. Urban Warfare Analysis Center, about 20 British troops who were ambushed by some 100 Shiite Muslim militia fighters outside Basra, Iraq, ran out of ammunition, fixed bayonets and charged across 600 feet of open ground. No British soldiers were killed, and about 20 militiamen were killed while others fled".
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Jun 25, 2014 18:04:03 GMT -5
I would rather carry extra ammo or a small pistol for the same weight. For me, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. Think about what role you want the weapon to serve and ask yourself if a bayonet really falls in line with that. Do you really want to close with and destroy the enemy with your last weapon (bayonet attached to empty rifle) or do you see yourself disengaging? If you want a weapon that doesn't need bullets, is there a better option? Personally, I have a tomahawk strapped to my pack, which serves as a breaching tool, survival tool, and back up weapon.
Theres a reason you don't see bayonets widely used in modern conflict.
Plus, they really do throw your aim off.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Jun 25, 2014 21:17:07 GMT -5
I completely accept that they're not ideal, at all. My thoughts are simply if something goes bump in the night, or I have a few seconds to get to a rifle and 1-2 magazines, it'd be nice to have an edged weapon with a bit of reach, and that I've had SOME training with. A question you may or may not be able to answer: The new bayonet is designed and compatible with the M4/16, but doesn't work with the Tavor... But the Tavor was designed to work with the M9/M7 bayonets. What is the feature that makes the two incompatible? We all know you brits see running out of essential supplies as a badge of honor. I don't see how the SA80 bayo would work on an M4 or M16A1,A2,A3, or A4. Reach is important in a blade fight. The problem with a long weapon is that it is easy to get inside of its range. Spears/pikes/bayoneted rifles work best in lines of troops because is forces a standoff range (think a phalynx or shield wall). One on One battles show a spear's weakness really well. My intent if I'm blade fighting is to use the rifle in the off hand as a shield and stab at gooey spots with my strong hand. For real though, if I have my last mag in my weapon, it's time to go. Break contact and live to fight another day.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jun 26, 2014 16:20:44 GMT -5
@ Winter: *Honour! I didn't mean the SA80 bayo on the M16 series (I'm pretty sure though that it actually just clips to the A2 birdcage, it's a VERY short handle, and the flash hider's the same). I meant that the M7/9 bayonets fit's on the Tavor. The new Marine one doesn't, but it fit's in the AR-15 pattern rifles with bayo lug. Is it too long, too short, too fat at the handle? I completely agree about if I get down to no mags (If I got down to TWO, I'd be making to leave...) the break contact, I'm thinking very much the following: I'm looking at a Tavor for my go to rifle of the future, assuming current availability and technology stands when I move. Assuming I have JUST that rifle for 'fun' 'sport' and HD/SHTF type scenarios and I need to make it as general purpose as possible, if I'm going to defend my home, realistically I'm going to defend my family. Property is property, and that's what insurance is for. I am not going to go clear my house if I think someone is in it. I am going to secure my family and wait at some choke point (top of stairs, bedroom doorway etc). I can't give you an example because I don't live in the house, but I do know we are likely to have a small house, and therefore I can/will probably hold a doorway. Given such a small space, I'd be quite glad of a blade on the end of my rifle, even with a backup handgun, blade, body armour, dogs or any other resource. It is VERY last ditch effort, but my intent is very much phalanx-esque doorway holding, rather than open charges across no mans land at a prepared enemy
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