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Post by Hawkeye on May 20, 2014 9:22:41 GMT -5
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Post by panzer0170 on May 20, 2014 12:32:20 GMT -5
Totally agree: We actually DON'T consider them (magazines) disposable items, here. Unfortunately one of the flaws in the British system IS it's logistics. We only have so many helicopters and trucks etc, and not very much in the way of money anymore. And I think for all the reasons you've highlighted, because it's a good thing. Resupply is great, but even in a military context, it's never taken for granted. AA threat means no helicopters? That means you're not getting anything till you go out and clear the AA threat. That means if you've 8 mags now, you've 8 mags till AFTER the AA threat is dealt with. It's a military example I know, but it's valid. If it were a preparedness scenario a lot of people will say 'well the chances are the other guy is going to have 5.56 magazines, so I'll just get them from the EF. I pose this question to those people: What happens if theres 20 of them, 2 of you, and you manage to fight your way AWAY from them? They're still around, you're still around, and now you've got 3 mags each because you ditched 5 on the way out. Very valid points here from Hawkeye, and why I struggle with this concept of the 'combat' reload; It DOES have a place, but is not something that should be trained as a standard for NORMAL use, it's close in, high threat OR if you're so far out of cover and taking effective fire that what you need RIGHT now is just sheer firepower to make it go away. |
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Post by USMC0331 on May 20, 2014 12:51:21 GMT -5
Good video. I'm just the opposite on priority because short of full "battle rattle" my load out for the primary is one in the gun and one on the belt.
That means at worst I lose (1) mag if I have to do a reload and can't or don't retain it.
Heavy 2nd line has 3-6 on plate carrier or chest harness and two on the belt. That setup has a dump pouch and priority would be retaining mags which is way easier with the pouch.
Still, situation dictates how important that mag is. It's never worth risking your life over and if it's made a priority in your training, what reason have we to believe that you will break that training when your life is on the line?
Cops that died with empty brass in their pockets defaulted to their training, I want to make sure anything I train as a default is going to work for me more than against me.
Don't get wrapped around the other axle of retaining that mag. It's just as much a mistake as getting the gun back up in 3gunner speeds, although doing something faster is never a hindrance from where I'm standing.
Finish the fight you are in and worry about the next one (and mags for it) when it's over.
That doesn't mean to treat a limited item as a throwaway, but that it's not the priority of the fight.
If I have 50 mags stored, how many firefights to you think that will last me in SHTF before I'm dead? Probably enough even if I threw all of them in the ground during reloads and never came back for them.
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Post by Ivarr Bergmann on May 20, 2014 13:01:17 GMT -5
Being alone Ive also thought about much of this..The only conclusion i have come to for myself is if i get made, is that I need to get lost and get lost fast. I keep a 40rnd mag as my first contact mag and its in the weapon. I hope the extra ammo will buy me a bit more critical time and distance. Id rather have a drum mag but they cost a lot up here and that's a beast to haul on an AKMS, but it would be a better option for the lone survivalist to get out of harms way to sustain some sort of fire constantly w/o having to worry about reloading and mag retention.....
There are no easy answers but they are out there.
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Post by panzer0170 on May 20, 2014 13:05:20 GMT -5
I cried a little bit when I saw the EXCELLENT review for the X-15 drum mag (Which isn't super high cap, but 50rds in a SHORT space is nice - Good to just blast through, straight into a dump pouch and then carry on as normal.) and then found out that it won't work in a Tavor.  (Yes, for anyone who's followed anything else I've written, I'm pretty sure with some sound advice I -AM- settling on a Tavor). Good to just blast through, straight into a dump pouch and then carry on as normal. |
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Post by Hawkeye on May 20, 2014 13:18:29 GMT -5
Good video. I'm just the opposite on priority because short of full "battle rattle" my load out for the primary is one in the gun and one on the belt. That means at worst I lose (1) mag if I have to do a reload and can't or don't retain it. Heavy 2nd line has 3-6 on plate carrier or chest harness and two on the belt. That setup has a dump pouch and priority would be retaining mags which is way easier with the pouch. Still, situation dictates how important that mag is. It's never worth risking your life over and if it's made a priority in your training, what reason have we to believe that you will break that training when your life is on the line? Cops that died with empty brass in their pockets defaulted to their training, I want to make sure anything I train as a default is going to work for me more than against me. Don't get wrapped around the other axle of retaining that mag. It's just as much a mistake as getting the gun back up in 3gunner speeds, although doing something faster is never a hindrance from where I'm standing. Finish the fight you are in and worry about the next one (and mags for it) when it's over. That doesn't mean to treat a limited item as a throwaway, but that it's not the priority of the fight. If I have 50 mags stored, how many firefights to you think that will last me in SHTF before I'm dead? Probably enough even if I threw all of them in the ground during reloads and never came back for them. This is exactly why Diz and I discussed this and I made the video. The whole cop thing, I'm completely familiar with it from my time in law enforcement, and its not relevant to this. That's the ONLY way they trained. If that's the ONLY way you train, then obviously its what your going to do. That's NOT what I said in the video. A mag very well may be worth risking your life over, because depending on how many you have, it may BE your life. Yes, the first priority is the survive a fight. I specifically pointed this out in the video. Not sure why I'm having to repeat it or why what I said was hard to understand. You PERSONALLY may have 50 mags stored. That's great, and a good start. Many/most people don't. Obviously if you have a large supply of mags then you have less concern in retaining them. That said, until someone comes up with a crystal ball that can tell me how long a given crisis will last and how many fights I will be in and to what extent, my priority will be on retaining them. It will last you through every one of them, until the last one where your out. |
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Post by Hawkeye on May 20, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5
Being alone Ive also thought about much of this..The only conclusion i have come to for myself is if i get made, is that I need to get lost and get lost fast. I keep a 40rnd mag as my first contact mag and its in the weapon. I hope the extra ammo will buy me a bit more critical time and distance. Id rather have a drum mag but they cost a lot up here and that's a beast to haul on an AKMS, but it would be a better option for the lone survivalist to get out of harms way to sustain some sort of fire constantly w/o having to worry about reloading and mag retention..... There are no easy answers but they are out there. Indeed, being alone, or even just two people, brings a whole other set of problems and concerns, and thus appropriate actions which differ from what a larger group would/could do. |
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Post by panzer0170 on May 20, 2014 13:31:13 GMT -5
I think, in short the point is this; It always depends on the situation. (Which is over-arching, throughout Diz and Hawkeye's ENTIRE mentality) Slightly longer, and magazine specific; Not keeping your mags CAN in a firefight save your life. But not having magazines NEXT time can COST you that life. 50 mags at home is great. If you're out, you come BACK home to find someone has moved in, and they then engage you and push you AWAY from your home.... You've now got whatever is on you. Numbers doesn't matter, less than to say you have to assume at all times what you are carrying is all you will have to deal with every situation you might face UNTIL you can change what you're carrying. Wearing enough body armour and a chest rig ideal for vehicle ops doesn't mean that you're not going to get bugged out of said vehicle and have to change role to LI style. Survival (LIFE, in general) is like chess; You always have to think a few moves ahead. Be that in a firefight (expecting another? I would be, because if you don't win, you're probably going to get chased...) Or in life - If you have 5 tires, you get a flat and change one, would you just drive around knowing that it's okay, because you've got a spare (6th) at home? Or would you rectify the problem and switch them out ASAP, RETAINING 6 fully functioning tires as quickly as possible? |
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Post by USMC0331 on May 20, 2014 13:36:02 GMT -5
Hawkeye, you don't have to repeat yourself, I heard you the first time. I was merely reemphasizing the importance of "now" verses "later" if you are lucky to have a later.
Training scars are not created because that's the only way they train. You will default to the last most trained method.
You found that out when trying to switch to the AK platform I bet?
My point in a nutshell is this... Train both, but make your priority the one that doesn't slow you down or distract you while in the fight.
PS> you mention how fast reloading with a flap and retention is even going slow in the video. That's kinda a parlor trick as the more moving parts you add to it the harder it is to do under stress. Smooth is fast in this case. KISS
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Post by USMC0331 on May 20, 2014 15:48:40 GMT -5
@panzer, don't keep all your eggs in one basket. Cache
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Post by panzer0170 on May 20, 2014 17:30:35 GMT -5
Money'd be a fine thing, to afford TO cache.
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Post by USMC0331 on May 20, 2014 18:40:29 GMT -5
I think the problem is that there is a lot of cross over on these type threads between SHTF and being a "freedom fighter" that is not being clarified.
Give me a SHTF scenario that has you with only the mags on your rig for the rest of your days and maybe I can understand.
I can understand it being priority #1 if you are a guerrilla fighter being hunted by the OPFOR, but SHTF? Defending your property?
SouthernPrepper has a good video on micro caches on his property and even if you don't have a property large enough to do so, having one or two away front the castle makes a lot of sense.
It's not a money thing it's a priority thing. If you have 50 mags at home it's a matter of splitting them up and having them throughout your AO, the cost is already paid for. If you have 5 mags to your weapon only then you need to fix that.
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Post by Hawkeye on May 21, 2014 7:48:17 GMT -5
Bottom line is this. We are, and will continue to be, proponents of practicing both methods of reloads (as stated), with retention being the primary default method. If that's not what you want to practice/do, don't do it. No one can make you and we aren't going to try to make you. We'll state our reasons why, gladly answer any questions and discuss it, but we aren't going to argue the point and try to convince anyone who doesn't get what we're saying. Everyone is free to do as they choose.  |
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Post by USMC0331 on May 21, 2014 11:14:29 GMT -5
Yeap, we will all just agree to disagree until we feel different about it. I won't try to convince you either, just give you reasons why I'm a proponent of the opposite priority as you have. At this point I think we have both stated our reasoning pretty well and there is no need to discuss it further, agreed?
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Post by Diz on May 21, 2014 12:08:21 GMT -5
Well here's the deal. We happen to believe in reloading with retention, WHENEVER POSSIBLE. So our "default" setting, as it were, is to retain the empty mag, somewhere along the process. Others may have a default setting of letting the mag drop, and then retain it, if at all possible, and again, somewhere along the process. Those two things are not as far apart as it may seem. In the end, you will either "speed" reload, or reload with retention, as the situation dictates. I don't see this as an all or nothing situation, I see it as use the box end, or open end wrench, where applicable.
Regardless of your default setting, you may find yourself using the other technique, as a matter of course. So really, what's the big deal.
Good point about having a shit-load of mags. And SP is right on, talking about ammo cans of mags stashed in his OP/LP positions. Hawkeye and I have a shit-load of mags as well. But unfortunately, the average prepper probably has a basic load (or two at best) and so you are probably gonna have to deal with this problem, if the supply system is shut down. Not to say battlefield pickup won't be a possibility. And that is why I recommend the AR system.
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