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Post by USMC0331 on May 21, 2014 16:25:51 GMT -5
Diz, I think we are all saying the same thing and it's a minor point IMO about the order of things. We both acknowledge there is a time for both methods, it's all going to be situational. Maybe I came across as anti-retention at first? It was never meant that way, so I'm glad everyone stuck with it until it was clarified. Many forums would have just labeled me a trouble maker and banned me. Ask me how I know?
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Post by Diz on May 26, 2014 15:23:54 GMT -5
It's all good. We have our own thoughts, ideas, preconceived notions, the same as anyone else. We don't claim to have all the answers, and the only thing we don't tolerate others who claim they do! Open discussion is good, defending/explaining your thoughts, presenting alternative views, asking for clarification, etc.
I believe our shit is pretty tight, but I am always open to new ways of doing things. Staying stagnant, just because that was the way you were taught, back in the day, can be hazardous to your health.
It doesn't diminish your dick size to admit somebody else has a better way of doing something, although you'd never know by the way guys usually act on-line.
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chuck
New Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chuck on May 28, 2014 15:11:37 GMT -5
"As the situation dictates." Diz, I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some. Too much dogma/absolutism by some who fancy themselves experts or have been proclaimed such and have let it go to their heads. If one is unable to keep an open mind regarding technique (as opposed to principles) or at least shrug and say, "hey, whatever works...I wouldn't do it that way, but rock on if it works for you," then it seems it would be difficult to learn anything new.
I'm getting older and crustier and set in my ways, but I've never been so set in my ways that when I see something new I don't at least analyze and evaluate it in case it's something I might be able to use to my benefit.
I long ago reached the age where I realized that there is always someone smarter, stronger, bigger, more creative, better looking, etc., than I am. Might as well let that work to my advantage by unapologetically borrowing and/or stealing from those with better ideas.
Anyway, some of us miss your words of wisdom over at the other place.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on May 30, 2014 12:24:33 GMT -5
It is possible to train to retain your magazines in a way that makes tactical sense (often using cover, which also makes tactical sense) It may add additional seconds, which you may have if you are properly using cover.
Its kind of the same philosophy as using the top protective flap on your magazine pouch. Sure, its technically a bit slower, but you gain better retention and protection.
There are times/places for speed reloads, but I would argue not as a default. My point is really this: if you train something that is fundamentally and tactically sound (such as retaining a mag) and can do it quickly when it counts, then what harm is there? Even if you do revert back to that method when you didn't necessarily mean to? you may have taken a extra second, but you now have a magazine that you might have lost.
For the guerrilla fighter with a cache... or even regular army with resupply at the end of the radio... mag retention is important because those extra magazines are miles or minutes away.
DONT ask me how I know : )
Diz, excellent point about the AR system.
Long story short, I DISagree, because the travis haley mag flip sure does look cool, and thats rule #1.
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Post by Hawkeye on May 30, 2014 12:50:55 GMT -5
Yeah, well that's like your opinion and all... Not like you would actually KNOW or anything....
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Post by panzer0170 on May 30, 2014 13:15:43 GMT -5
There are time for speed reloads, but I would argue not as a default. My point is really this: if you train something that is fundamentally and tactically sound (such as retaining a mag) and can do it quickly when it counts, then what harm is there? even if you do revert back to that method when you didn't necessarily mean to? you may have taken a extra second, but you now have a magazine that you might have lost. Totally agree. In my mind you do not have to train to just let go of something in your hand. Doing the reverse DOES however take practise!
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Post by hudson5969 on Oct 26, 2014 16:55:57 GMT -5
Hope you don't mind if I throw something else in: In all but one situation I've had training (or experience) in, it was always faster to transition to a sidearm than it was to reload the rifle, even a speed reload. The general concept being that if you HAVE to speed load or die, either the bad guy is well within pistol range, and if not you have time to get to cover or should be reloading while moving to cover. Even there, if you HAD to do a speed reload, it doesn't slow you down much to stuff the spent mag behind the rig right behind the pocket you're grabbing the next mag from, and secure it better when there is a lull, or you have cover.
This, IMO, is a good argument for carrying a secondary.
The one instance where it was faster to speed load the rifle was when we were prone. It just took too long to reach around for the sidearm and swing it around our side to bring it to bear. But you also addressed this in your Prone video, where you do the speed reload, and depending on how much time you have in a lull, stuff the spent mag down your shirt, behind the rig or in a dump pouch.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 26, 2014 18:35:57 GMT -5
OK, I know we got sideways on this topic, but I'm gonna clarify it (my position) real simple like once again.
1. CAUGHT IN OPEN: E-reload = load gun, drop mag, leave mag on ground and fight to end it or get to cover.
2. BEHIND COVER & STILL FIGHTING: E-reload = load gun, drop mag, recover before moving if possible or after fight.
3. BEHIND COVER & LULL IN FIGHT: Reload w/retention
The reason for #2 is that while you are behind cover, you are suppose to be providing cover for your buddy. That 2-5 seconds you are taking to stow an empty mag is too long and should not be your priority. You have a FT (4-8) guys, then sure... use that BIG ARMY protocol and rock on. If I need your rounds to cover me, please don't delay them for even a second by playing with an empty mag.
Also, when you are trying to store that mag and are being interrupted by incoming, what will happen to it by nature? Your OODA will go sideways and likely you will be hanging onto it messing up you efficiency before your brain catches up and drops the dumb thing.
As for rifle/pistol transitions... there is surely a time for it, but it's usually inside of your effective pistol range, which is < 25M and we don't always have a pistol, thus the expediency of an E-reload and the need for proficiency.
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Post by hudson5969 on Oct 26, 2014 18:57:50 GMT -5
1.) I wasn't directly addressing your post, so no need to really clarify your position as I wasn't arguing it. I want to learn more, and I know I come across rather direct.
2.) From a military perspective, I see where you are coming from. Though most people these days beg, borrow or steal to get some kind of sidearm, issued or not.
3.) I'm not in the military, I choose what I carry, and I make dure to have the sidearm in addition to the primary. Never had the luxury of a full fire team. I was lucky to be working with more than 1 other guy. If I am reloading behind cover, THEY need to be covering ME, I'm not covering anyone while reloading, and I mentioned the idea of shoving the spent mag down your shirt or behind the mag pouch your pulling the next from. This may take 1 additional second under duress, but not 2-5.
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 26, 2014 19:23:11 GMT -5
hudson5969, First welcome aboard! I wasn't addressing you directly either. The tuck it in the shirt is fine if it works for you. I was taught this in bootcamp and have never cared for it. Add a plate carrier and it sucks even more. Get 3 mags in their and it's like a group of ferrets fighting when you try to prone out again. It is one of the quickest ways of storing a mag though. 2-5 sec and longer I've seen people doing in a static range condition because their crap is not straightened out with their gear. Put it on a timer and let me know what your actually delay is when doing both methods. I'll try to get some video of both tomorrow for my own self. The problem is... if you are both loading, you are not shooting and the faster you load the less time that silence is happening. See the :WHILE WE ARE SHARING" video. Both are doing e-reloads, now picture both doing RWR's. What is the priority before the fight is over? An empty mag or winning the fight? I can't see why this is not a "no brainer" but it seems to be a big deal for some on both camps. Put it on the clock, I bet it's much longer than you think. Oh, and because I'm enjoying Mosby's book so much, I'm going to share a quote from pg.105
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Post by Diz on Oct 27, 2014 6:57:28 GMT -5
Glad you guys re-visited this. I think Chuck really hit the nail on the head, in that sometimes we get wrapped up in defending our position more than really examining the issue and figuring out what works the best.
It's kinda like we're all saying the same things, like the 4 gun safety rules, but in different orders. I like to say re-load with retention, whenever possible. You may say E-reload whenever necessary. And then there's go to alternate, whenever necessary.
There are times and places for all these things. I think the real issue is deciding which COA to take while under pressure. And that's a training issue, pure and simple.
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Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 9:25:05 GMT -5
I'd like to re-visit this issue, if I may, and get your fresh take on it. From the perspective of the armed citizen, what technique(s) should be taught to reload your rifle? And what are the situations you should use them in? First, I think the armed citizen should be taught both "speed" and "admin" reloads. Secondly, when do you use what? For most guys, in a home defense scenario, in a WROL sit, the speed reload should work just fine. Most people live in urban or suburban locations. Finding mags littered about your immediate area shouldn't be an issue. Also going through more than one mag would probably be the exception to the rule. So for close up, home defense situations I think the "speed" reload is the way to go.
A lot of this argument centers around what environment you're in. Our assumption has largely been that you will be in a remote retreat setting. Well, after much consideration, I think a lot, if not most, folks will not be in that sit, at least initially. So looking at it from the most likely scenario, the "speed" reload should be employed. And I still think Chuck hit the nail on the head awhile back. People get so wrapped up in defending their pos, that they lose sight of what is actually the best technique.
I have said this before and it bears repeating. If you can show me a better way of doing things, and prove it, I will change, not reject it out of pride or whatever.
So I will say this. If you are in a suburban area, in a WROL sit, the "speed" reload" is probably the best way to go. Chances are, you will be able to recover mags after a gunfight. Even if not, due to the distances probably involved, the speed reload is gonna be the best way to go.
So with all that in mind, I won't say that reloading with retention is the "default setting" anymore, with the realization that most folks aren't going to be in a woodland setting, which was the basis for this statement. Even if you make it to a retreat, there will probably be a lot of time and urban terrain in between then, and now.
With all that being said, if and when you finally make it to a woodland AO, retaining your mags, whenever possible, is still going to be a good idea. With cover, and concealment, and perhaps different distances involved as well, it should be easier to retain mags, as compared to being wide open, in urban terrain. So if you can, do it. If not, let 'em lay. Here is where a re-supply issue may emerge. Is that mag worth your life? Well, yes and no. In the end, you may be down to a basic load of mags. At that point, the decision has to be made.
I think that a good technique may be combining them both, in initially "speed" reloading, but then retrieving the mag later when ever possible. So that you train to reload with the empty hitting the deck, but then pick it up and store it before moving on.
Another technique, for your consideration, was to reload on the move. As you move, especially in break contact, you remove the old mag, store it, and get a fresh one in.
What say ye?
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 23, 2015 16:34:44 GMT -5
I would say in a ROL situation, drop it. If you're in the right someone will have picked it up as evidence and give it you back anyway (eventually).
In a scenario where you are (LONG TERM - I consider short term WROL to simply be one big crime. ((The law WILL roll back in. Katrina is ROL, in my eyes. And yes, I've heard first hand accounts of what happened there. Still counts as ROL)))WROL, let us assume you have what is on you/in your vehicle. Likely somewhere around 8 mags? Assuming your tactic is to win the firefight and then RUN LIKE HELL BECAUSE IT'S JUST YOU/you and a buddy (And lets be honest. We aren't a Platoon/Company strength unit that's going to fight through an area and clear it), you have only got those 8 magazines. Sure you have 20 more in the house. Let's assume you aren't going to make it to the house. Initial scenario remains. I reckon you'll go through a bare minimum of 4 magazines extracting.
You now have 4 magazines. You are now equipped for ONE more engagement, and then you're screwed. With your full 8 magazines you have 4 bombed up and ready to fight, you can harbour up somewhere and rebomb the rest of your legs with loose ammo from your pack, car, whatever.
I maintain that is is HARDER to retain under stress if not trained than it is to just open your hand. Retention involves, at it's simplest, finding your jacket, making sure the magazine is properly inside, and doing the same as you do if you don't retain - open your hand.
Those 8 magazines and whatever you have on you is all you can count on in 'planning figures'. Sure, you might get some battlefield pickup stuff. You might even get saved by the UN, but if you plan for that as your getout then you're going to end up in a hole.
As to reloading on the move; I have tried it, whilst being beasted up and down training areas all over the shop. I would only ever do this if I dropped empty as someone else shouted MOVE. It's hard as hell to run (assuming you're bounding properly, and not taking a country stroll) without pumping your arms. It's hard as hell to reload WHILST you're pumping your arms. If you've genuinely got enough firepower going downrange that the enemy is ACTUALLY surpressed? Go for it. But if that's the case, you've got time to reload in a position of relative safety, properly, and then move. Again; I've done it, I wouldn't say NEVER do it, but it's horrible and not something I'd want to train specifically.
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Post by Diz on Feb 24, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -5
Good points.
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 24, 2015 11:20:27 GMT -5
I think part of this is looking tactically vs strategically, and is perhaps something worth us all re-examining across everything we do. Tactically, throwaway mags saves seconds and is, undeniably, the best way to win a single firefight. Strategically, If I have 1 rifle, I am not going to throw that rifle away unless I -HAVE- to, so why would I do it with magazines?
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