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Post by omnivorous on Mar 8, 2016 17:16:07 GMT -5
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Mar 8, 2016 19:24:31 GMT -5
Typical load for me. Not all but most. Uw rig -four mags Two CATS and izzys. On belt. Pistol..gp pouch(binocular..maps..compass.gloves..head wrap..etc ).ifak extra tqs..two pistol reloads and 1-2 rifle mags.
Extra FAK ..reloads..food...etc. go in the pack.
To me the AC in the shtf events we talk of. Should be fast..mobile and know the area. Your fighting in your back yard per say. Down here..in one to two bounds on your break contact drill you can be out of sight.
Also I think many need to go step into the woods. Youll find out fast what needs to be streamlined.
Weight for me imho needs to stay sub 30lbs not to exced 35.
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Post by omnivorous on Mar 8, 2016 20:30:34 GMT -5
Weight for me imho needs to stay sub 30lbs not to exced 35. Is that including a rifle, or just gear? Water is probably going to be the 2nd, if not most, heavy thing to be carried; directly competing with ammo. 1 liter of water weighs 1 kilogram, which converts to ~2.2 lbs. A USGI canteen holds a hair under 1 liter, so it will weigh just above 2 lbs. We have to balance-out the need for carrying weapons, ammo, water, & all the other essential crap. Perhaps we should figure-out a baseline of what needs to be carried, determine that weight, & then workout what needs to fit under the total weight ceiling. There are a lot of nice-to-have things on a contingency basis, but may not really be needed to accomplish a task or mission. It's that rabbit hole of 2 is 1 & 1 is none, that people fall into, that Max was talking about. Like Max mentioned in his post, if a pack is in the end too heavy for you, & you need to really get moving for some reason, you'll just dump the thing, with whatever is in it being gone & to never be seen again. I really wouldn't want that to be ammo, mags, NODs or some other force multiplier, which could be later used against me or some innocent.
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 9, 2016 7:12:10 GMT -5
I would add weight for what task? I think for the most part we have to consider that rather than an LI role, most of what an AC does is a very specifically short-range reconnaissance (a few miles at most, hoping like fuck to not get contacted). I must admit I find myself falling back into the mindset of fighting, rather than breaking contact and that keeps influencing my decisions. The trick is in my mind I can de-load my gear AND add load to it for different tasks, and if I train with something middleweight I can do short bursts at higher weight and operate easily with lighter weight. I know for a fact I can get a true FIGHTING load down to 10-12 pounds, assuming AC context (IE no grenades, rockets and other fun toys) because that's 8 mags and some water. It'd only do for a single fight, maybe two at a push, but it'd WORK. The trouble is in striving TOO low as a 'standard', and not being able to scale upwards. I love UW Gear's chest rigs because they'll function WITH my belt gear or standalone, but the LIGHTEST I'd want to go would be UW with 4 mags BOK and SOME water (1pt survival flask?).
Mostly I'm thinking out loud here; Feel free to deconstruct!
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Mar 9, 2016 10:57:32 GMT -5
Omni. UW rig weighs sub 10lbs iirc. Belt kits under that as well. Hydration pack (c back mule) this with sidearm..4 mags etc..is 19lbs. But those items will be removed. Putting it under 15. rifle is bare bones 47'
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Mar 9, 2016 11:15:44 GMT -5
Sorry on mobile.
My goal as posted is short area recon /denial patrols. A 4-6 mile loop. This allows for 6-12-+hours out. With (weather permitting) to go light ./fast if need be. Omni. I'm in Fla....and I agree. Water is key. Especially june thru sept. I carry three liters..or two in the cback. Along with a survival straw and katadyn mini. Water is pretty abundant here in my area. Its a driving factor in my gear choices and how ill operate. I basically live in a set for a Vietnam movie here. I just need black pjs and a straw hat... Gotta love central Fla LOL
Extended patrol pack weights would be kept low as well. Backpacking regularly keeps that in check. Along with how I run my long range bag. Knowing what I need for x days vs what I think I need.
I've seriously contemplated take pics of the set up. I think the standard set up above I did on another forum. But on my phone.can't post.
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 9, 2016 11:19:13 GMT -5
Sorry on mobile. My goal as posted is short area recon /denial patrols. A 4-6 mile loop. This allows for 6-12-+hours out. With (weather permitting) to go light ./fast if need be. Omni. I'm in Fla....and I agree. Water is key. Especially june thru sept. I carry three liters..or two in the cback. Along with a survival straw and katadyn mini. Water is pretty abundant here in my area. Its a driving factor in my gear choices and how ill operate. I basically live in a set for a Vietnam movie here. I just need black pjs and a straw hat... Gotta love central Fla LOL Extended patrol pack weights would be kept low as well. Backpacking regularly keeps that in check. Along with how I run my long range bag. Knowing what I need for x days vs what I think I need. I've seriously contemplated take pics of the set up. I think the standard set up above I did on another forum. But on my phone.can't post. protus; I want pics of this MULE. I've had a civvy biking one for years that I love, but it's set up for a whole other task, it's size is bloody perfect as a true DAY (not overnight) sack, and I'm looking at getting one. Trick is there seems to be a new variant every year, and I don't want to pay brand new prices. Details please? (Perhaps another thread so we don't go off on a specific bit of gear tangent?)
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Mar 9, 2016 13:19:36 GMT -5
Pz. Its older. Maybe 05ish. I got it. As a day pack with all my goodies for 12-24 hours is 19lbs. Which is heavy for its size. Used for patrol only items ill remove would be the extra pistol reloads and pistol as they'd go on.my belt. Water filter and ifak are on molle on it. Basic 6*6 medic pouches by sds. Ill see if I can get pics up.
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Post by omnivorous on Mar 9, 2016 19:58:20 GMT -5
I would add weight for what task? I think for the most part we have to consider that rather than an LI role, most of what an AC does is a very specifically short-range reconnaissance (a few miles at most, hoping like fuck to not get contacted). I must admit I find myself falling back into the mindset of fighting, rather than breaking contact and that keeps influencing my decisions. The trick is in my mind I can de-load my gear AND add load to it for different tasks, and if I train with something middleweight I can do short bursts at higher weight and operate easily with lighter weight. I know for a fact I can get a true FIGHTING load down to 10-12 pounds, assuming AC context (IE no grenades, rockets and other fun toys) because that's 8 mags and some water. It'd only do for a single fight, maybe two at a push, but it'd WORK. The trouble is in striving TOO low as a 'standard', and not being able to scale upwards. I love UW Gear's chest rigs because they'll function WITH my belt gear or standalone, but the LIGHTEST I'd want to go would be UW with 4 mags BOK and SOME water (1pt survival flask?). Mostly I'm thinking out loud here; Feel free to deconstruct! I would think ACs would be doing more than just Recce's in whatever scenario would require us to "activate". They would probably be doing guard duty-like activities at a retreat, supply runs (convoys), and executive protection (EP) type activities. I don't think we would just be sneaking around the woods, unless its primarily just you living out in the middle of the woods. Breaking contact is fighting. To paraphrase Cpt. Jack Sparrow, breaking contact is "fighting to run away." Perforating the people wishing to catch you and do you harm, and then running away from them, is a good way to keep people from catching you and doing you harm. Scale-ability is much easier thing for ACs to do, and something which should certainly be realized in gear and equipment selection, given we don't have as much "required" crap to lug around, so they are able to be super trim, or load-up for longer-term or special situations.
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Post by omnivorous on Mar 9, 2016 20:08:23 GMT -5
Sorry on mobile. My goal as posted is short area recon /denial patrols. A 4-6 mile loop. This allows for 6-12-+hours out. With (weather permitting) to go light ./fast if need be. Omni. I'm in Fla....and I agree. Water is key. Especially june thru sept. I carry three liters..or two in the cback. Along with a survival straw and katadyn mini. Water is pretty abundant here in my area. Its a driving factor in my gear choices and how ill operate. I basically live in a set for a Vietnam movie here. I just need black pjs and a straw hat... Gotta love central Fla LOL Extended patrol pack weights would be kept low as well. Backpacking regularly keeps that in check. Along with how I run my long range bag. Knowing what I need for x days vs what I think I need. I've seriously contemplated take pics of the set up. I think the standard set up above I did on another forum. But on my phone.can't post. I was thinking, for a foot patrol scenario, a 2L hydro bladder, with two 1L canteens on a belt, would be a good setup. Once the bladder goes empty, top it off from the canteens, and when able refill the canteens with some filtered water from the water filter you should be carrying. Worse comes to worse, you could go old school, and boil the water, but that would be a much more labor and time intensive method. This would be in addition to a hydro bladder in a pack, which would be drank from first, so that the water you're carrying on your webbing, wouldn't already be depleted, should you need to dump the pack.
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 10, 2016 7:48:52 GMT -5
I would add weight for what task? I think for the most part we have to consider that rather than an LI role, most of what an AC does is a very specifically short-range reconnaissance (a few miles at most, hoping like fuck to not get contacted). I must admit I find myself falling back into the mindset of fighting, rather than breaking contact and that keeps influencing my decisions. The trick is in my mind I can de-load my gear AND add load to it for different tasks, and if I train with something middleweight I can do short bursts at higher weight and operate easily with lighter weight. I know for a fact I can get a true FIGHTING load down to 10-12 pounds, assuming AC context (IE no grenades, rockets and other fun toys) because that's 8 mags and some water. It'd only do for a single fight, maybe two at a push, but it'd WORK. The trouble is in striving TOO low as a 'standard', and not being able to scale upwards. I love UW Gear's chest rigs because they'll function WITH my belt gear or standalone, but the LIGHTEST I'd want to go would be UW with 4 mags BOK and SOME water (1pt survival flask?). Mostly I'm thinking out loud here; Feel free to deconstruct! I would think ACs would be doing more than just Recce's in whatever scenario would require us to "activate". They would probably be doing guard duty-like activities at a retreat, supply runs (convoys), and executive protection (EP) type activities. I don't think we would just be sneaking around the woods, unless its primarily just you living out in the middle of the woods. Breaking contact is fighting. To paraphrase Cpt. Jack Sparrow, breaking contact is "fighting to run away." Perforating the people wishing to catch you and do you harm, and then running away from them, is a good way to keep people from catching you and doing you harm. Scale-ability is much easier thing for ACs to do, and something which should certainly be realized in gear and equipment selection, given we don't have as much "required" crap to lug around, so they are able to be super trim, or load-up for longer-term or special situations. Of course they'll be doing more than just recce's. But to compare them to a regular soldier their mission is not going to consist of a find/fix/destroy cycle on a daily basis. It's very much a defensive posture with offense where required. As you mention, you can scale up when required but down can be hard to achieve. Given the context of a grid down scenario of any kind (short term included) access to food and water is going to be stunted (Let's face it; the food that stores well is GENERALLY not the best quality fresh food, and unless you have access to fresh before the problem starts...) and any extra weight is going to equal extra calories burned and extra water consumed. The right kind of PT will help (Not necessarily to make you stronger, but endurance training, with some good science behind it so you burn the right fuel first) but so will only carrying the bare minimum for success. Breaking contact is entirely different to actively planning to engage the enemy. If I was to advance to contact on a known enemy position I would be carrying very little 'snivel' gear, extra medical gear, as much ammo as possible for any support elements... I'd probably be heavier in basic load, but lighter on 'extras' like spare water and such. For a proper CTR I'd very likely go down as low as 1 magazine in a pocket and 1 on the rifle, gear off whilst on the objective.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Mar 10, 2016 8:37:08 GMT -5
Same page omni. Go up or down as "mission " dictates. Pz. For me. Heavy load is a tt mesh mod vest. 6 mags. One in rifle..bladder...belt kit and two extra rifle mags in that. That's my "OK...bad guys got the camp on oh shit creek road..lets retake it..." kit. Doing recce or defensive /denial patrols (8-24 hours) I'm going as light as I can..or humping in heavy. Dropping gear at a RV point before setting up static or hitting the main patrol route.
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Post by Hawkeye on Mar 14, 2016 21:49:55 GMT -5
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Post by Hawkeye on Mar 15, 2016 22:20:30 GMT -5
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 16, 2016 6:57:33 GMT -5
Hawkeye: Reference the Patrol pack video, and practising everything. YES. And then before you go for a wander around the neighbourhood, you have an orders group (doesn't have to be ridiculously formal) and you discuss 'actions on'. Actions on light. Actions on taking effective enemy fire. Actions on Enemy pre-seen etc. Leaves you flexibility on a per mission basis, and you can even make an actions on 'Go firm & I will decided a course of action'. Also love want vs need.
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