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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 15, 2015 18:07:19 GMT -5
Seeing the need to continue discussion on LMG's and other squad support class weapons, I wanted to start this thread. Please feel free to contribute and ask any questions related to these weapons here.
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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 15, 2015 18:11:18 GMT -5
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Post by omnivorous on Jan 15, 2015 22:57:30 GMT -5
For me, any kind of squad support class of weapon, would need to have full-auto capability. Real full-auto. Not bump-fire, poser full-auto. I mean, there are steel receiver-ed ARs, and drum mags, bump-fire aiding devices, but its just not the same thing. :/
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Jan 16, 2015 3:26:15 GMT -5
For defensive purposes they would be very useful.
If you lack maneuver elements, fielding a crew served weapon on a single small team would be more of a burden than an asset. IMO.
Now if you have a dozen teams and a real feasible ability to assault shit, well, get a few of them.
Gotta agree with omni on the FA in an offensive role. I think a semi auto would be useful in defense.
I'm aware of what Patton said about fixed positions, but,many castles still stand and have never been overrun.
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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 16, 2015 7:22:29 GMT -5
For me, any kind of squad support class of weapon, would need to have full-auto capability. Real full-auto. Not bump-fire, poser full-auto. I mean, there are steel receiver-ed ARs, and drum mags, bump-fire aiding devices, but its just not the same thing. :/ Agreed 100%. Obviously everything I post here is completely legal and in some situations semi-auto only for training/peacetime purposes.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 16, 2015 7:45:15 GMT -5
I think even for those with no access to real full auto weapons, it's important to consider how they affect how you work, because I know if I came across say an M240 at some point in time, I'd definitely want it, even if it only played a defensive role, and even if I could only feed it for one engagement. If you have access to them... Definitely worth training with, even if they're not something you can use directly because of manpower/other requirements that mean it's not the best thing.
'Another string to your bow.'
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Post by omnivorous on Jan 16, 2015 16:24:24 GMT -5
For me, any kind of squad support class of weapon, would need to have full-auto capability. Real full-auto. Not bump-fire, poser full-auto. I mean, there are steel receiver-ed ARs, and drum mags, bump-fire aiding devices, but its just not the same thing. :/ Agreed 100%. Obviously everything I post here is completely legal and in some situations semi-auto only for training/peacetime purposes. Well, its not inherently unlawful to own FA weapons, it is in some State's, but not completely at the Federal level. Not to derail the thread into a boring discussion, when we all agree, that the National Firearms Act of 1934 is wholly Unconstitutional, along with every like it, since it. I have to agree with winter, in that I think a weapon designed and equipped for a sustained, semi-automatic fire role, could be very useful in a defensive situation. Hell, I very much want one of those VEPR IV's which were floating around for a while at $1000, but are now double that.
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Dave R
Junior Member
Posts: 460
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Post by Dave R on Jan 16, 2015 18:14:04 GMT -5
Digging the pictures.
I want to bring up my favorite LMG. And that being The PKM. The fact that it is lighter than the m240b and the m60, the caliber (7.62x54R) and lastly the non disintegrating belt. A lot of people hate the fact that it has a non disintegrating belt but I think its a great feature. Its a great LMG for a guerrilla force that does not have a steady supply line.
For example, with whats going on in Ukraine the DPR early on had the ability to get Spam cans of ammo, but did not often have the ability to get the belts. Its a shame we cant get it in the states easily. Hell, id even buy a Semi version.
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Post by Hawkeye on Jan 17, 2015 15:01:47 GMT -5
The semi-auto RPK's like the AES-10B have always made a LOT of sense to me, and are the perfect suppressive weapon for preparedness groups. I sure wish I would have been able to get one back when they were available and more affordable. Personally, I do NOT like full auto for our purposes. It wastes far to much ammunition, and that's something that we are all most likely to have a fixed supply of. Managing that amount is going to be far more critical than I think most people give thought to. You can do plenty of suppressive fire with a semi-auto weapon like the RPK with some 75 rnd drum mags on it for a small team to maneuver. Even more applicable though in my mind, is for static use defending a retreat/homestead, as an area denial weapon from a fixed and fortified position.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 17, 2015 16:06:55 GMT -5
Agreed there Hawkeye. My worry with full auto is that it's very comforting. How long can you sustain GPMG fire in a fixed location without resupply? Doing it properly (IE, worth doing) you're firing 3-5rd bursts and changing a barrel out every 200 rounds. Given even a moderate firefight that can be a thousand rounds in 10 minutes EASILY. And unless you have 360 arcs any halfway smart opponent will just circle round you and come at you from the other side. Now if you have enough that you can get 360 coverage (or most of it with some good solid obstacles elsewhere...) then you're fine.... but now you're probably feeding 8+ auto weapons. There were some studies done recently by the Army that did rough counts of how much firepower people were using in Afghan, and then getting them to fight using the laser-quest addon stuff on exercise in the UK. They found the average section would use upwards of 4000rds in a single attack (mostly GPMG ammo - about 500rds of rifle ammo because... manoeuvre). On completion of nearly EVERY SINGLE ATTACK and subsequent review they found that every time the drill was run the enemy was killed within the first hundred rounds. Sustained GPMG fire for several thousand rounds more was there out of habit, and 'covering' the area. Trial covered 6 months with 2-3 run throughs of this drill each week. Points to think about; Post engagement, how do you manoeuvre teams out to do clearance patrols? You can't keep laying down fire, it's impractical. Any fire you DO lay down needs to be at a target, otherwise it's just comfort fire. Who is feeding that gun, and what other responsibilities do they have? Are they firing with a rifle too, or are they there as close protection for the weapon? I know I'm going contrary to what I said earlier in that I'd want one... But that's because I DO want one, but fuck if I know how I'd feed or manage it. I'm thinking load the thing, feed it till it dies, go back to primary. And if I have one it's likely to be scavenged. I think as far as purchase is concerned, unless you're lucky and flush, you'd be better looking down the DMR route, or as has been pointed out, semi auto 'nearly a machine-gun' weapons.
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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 17, 2015 17:14:09 GMT -5
Some belt fed's have a "semi-auto" selector so the user has the option to choose his rate of fire. The Ares-MCR (as shown below while undergoing testing on the 100rd nutsack adapter) has this ability. Even those that only allow full auto fire can be fairly easily made to fire in only doubles or triples by an experienced gunner. The idea that simply because a weapon has auto capability it will somehow burn through more ammo is a personal discipline issue, not one inherent to the weapon design. Even when firing the MG42, which has a fairly high cyclic rate, a 50rd belt can yield me 15-20 aimed bursts.
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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 17, 2015 17:18:43 GMT -5
Testing the same weapon suppressed:
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 17, 2015 17:23:38 GMT -5
waffenmacht; Yes. I have managed in the past to hit targets with a GPMG and iron sights out to 6-700m with single rounds. I got shouted at for using the weapon improperly The trick is getting people with the discipline and the stress inoculation to achieve that discipline under fire. Hadn't seen the single shot option for belt feds. I thought all your auto capable weapons were pre-whenever the ban was, and therefore mostly all old as hell? (although usually bomb-proof...). That wouldn't definitely be something of interest, meaning you could leave the heavy stuff out in sentry positions, but change the selector if you know your temporary gunner is going to be a trigger rider.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Jan 17, 2015 17:39:21 GMT -5
The beauty of LMG's is in machine gun theory. Some don't seem to understand a true MG's use. I don't even think it's taught anymore. (there's still FM's, exp below) An MG is not deployed like a rifle with a shit ton of bullets. It's a wall, minefield, terrain feature you project on to the battlefield. When properly used, it's like a border collie and the enemy like sheep. www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c05.htmProper employment of one takes a lot of ammo. UN supply convoys carry lots of ammo.
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Post by hudson5969 on Jan 17, 2015 17:48:56 GMT -5
What I could see as being pretty useful for moderate sustained fire (meaning, not cyclic), would e some of the older designs that have been converted to semi only, or even a new design that would be semi only (I'd really lie a semi PKP). The fact that the older designs (and the PK series of machineguns) use non-disintegrating belts. So, 8mm, or 7.62x54R are fairly easy to get a hold of, but disintegrating belts are not. So you can essentially reload your belts from anyone with Mosin or Mauser ammo in those spam cans.
Since it wouldn't be full auto, mounting an ACOG or similar(I've seen PKPs with optics mounted) would be an interesting concept -- the static defense DMR rifle that is belt fed and can up its fire rate significantly, without running into limited rounds on board from box magazines.
This concept is also achievable more at the SAW level with ARs and AKs with their available drum magazines and quad-stackers. The semi-auto RPK clones, or Yugo M70 series rifles (which are just shortened RPKs), or ARs with heavy, preferably fluted, barrels.
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