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Post by hudson5969 on Dec 9, 2014 11:33:00 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but in the interim between adrenaline rush, life getting harder and ending, that person can do a lot of damage, so you want that time to be a short as possible, which means maximizing the damage you do with a non-critical hit.
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Post by panzer0170 on Dec 9, 2014 11:47:14 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but in the interim between adrenaline rush, life getting harder and ending, that person can do a lot of damage, so you want that time to be a short as possible, which means maximizing the damage you do with a non-critical hit. Exactly this. Mate of mine made the rest of 2 peoples lives a misery, before he bled out enough to stop being effective. (He's still here, thankfully - Good casevac system and solid work by the medics on the ground are to thank for that...) We're not talking seconds, we're talking a couple of minutes, at which point someone noticed he was shot, told him, and he fell flat on his arse. The brain is a scary thing. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Dec 9, 2014 11:50:51 GMT -5
However, now I think about it, if 7.62 didn't have enough to stop a man - Perhaps barrel length really doesn't matter. I dunno. Numbers are a nice comfort, for me, and given I'll be running a bullpup this really isn't a debate that matters too heavily, for me.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Dec 9, 2014 12:21:33 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but in the interim between adrenaline rush, life getting harder and ending, that person can do a lot of damage, so you want that time to be a short as possible, which means maximizing the damage you do with a non-critical hit. True. You really always want a one shot stop. CNS is the only guarantee here...oh wait, I've seen pistol rounds to the head where the victim was awake and talking that eventually had neurosurgery. That's why you hear of people that have been shot with...you pick the caliber...and continue with the fight. It all depends on how large a hole is made in a vessel or solid organ. A nick in a large artery will take longer to bleed out than a complete severe of one let's say half the size. You notice I mentioned solid organ above. You can take a round to a hollow organ and keep fighting. A solid organ is very vascular and will bleed more. I've seen and treated people that have been hit with one round of .22lr, but died right there. Autopsy showed that round had blown a big hole in the aorta. I've seen the other end also where they have been hit with multiple rounds and none ever hit a vessel. Luck plays a role I believe. You can have a center mass shot and the round hits a bone and ricochets where it exits the flank and misses major vessels and organs. If that happens to be you, well it's good luck. If you are the shooter it's bad luck. Second, third....shots will be needed. We haven't even talked about cavitation which plays a role as well. |
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Dec 9, 2014 12:33:40 GMT -5
However, now I think about it, if 7.62 didn't have enough to stop a man - Perhaps barrel length really doesn't matter. I dunno. Numbers are a nice comfort, for me, and given I'll be running a bullpup this really isn't a debate that matters too heavily, for me. Good to hear your Mate made it. I dunno either. I've seen/heard/read...well the caliber matters, no the placement matters, no the barrel length matters, etc. I dunno. I think everything plays a role (including luck). You get hit in the foot with a 5.56, well placement mattered there. You get shot in the head with a .22lr and the round tracks under the skin never entering the skull (seen it), well you could say caliber mattered....or was it distance? The thing I've learned with reading the debates and seeing patients in the field, the ER and OR is you have to keep fighting til they drop and stop fighting you. Never Give Up! This debate/discussion has prob gone on since firearms were invented and will continue long after we pass on. I love having this discussion though as I think it makes all think and maybe learn stuff, at least I learn stuff. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Dec 9, 2014 13:13:19 GMT -5
It just seems logical (which doesn't necessarily mean right!) that assuming all other factors are the same, faster, heavier projectiles (be it a stone, an arrow, a bullet or a SHOE) are going to do more damage if they hit in the same place.
Logistics factors a lot into the calibre choice of a large, mobile force. 10,000 rounds of something 2/3 the size and weight means you've got capacity for 15,000 - etc etc etc. Using smaller projectiles therefore you need to increase the efficiency of the round for the same/similar effects. Naturally, the ideal round for all firefights is 30mm HEDP...
But that would be a pain in the arse to carry magazines and a rifle for, so we downsize to practical sizes. Again, it all comes back to purpose - Smaller units may want more available ROUNDS to appear as a larger unit by sheer force of firepower down range. Others may want garuanteed first round hit or something that can penetrate cover.
I like 5.56, but I've heard LOTS of stories of it being bad at putting humans down, without the right 'conditions'. High end SF types generally have a lot of things on their side - SKILL being a key factor, camouflage etc all allowing them to better use the tools given to them (better shot placement, can get closer unseen before attacking etc.) And one of the key things; SF people swear by something that works, and quite often it's because they're good enough to make it work. I met a bloke who swore by carrying a pistol across his chest (on a PC), regardless of role - I personally find it awkward as hell to get to, there, but he'd never have it any other way.
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Post by omnivorous on Dec 9, 2014 15:12:31 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but in the interim between adrenaline rush, life getting harder and ending, that person can do a lot of damage, so you want that time to be a short as possible, which means maximizing the damage you do with a non-critical hit. Getting multiple good hits will reduce that lag time. Utilizing cover well, or at least good movement, would reduce further risk. But, the bad guy may just have at least one round with your name on it.  |
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Post by hudson5969 on Dec 10, 2014 0:45:34 GMT -5
I'm certainly not going to argue shot placement matters more than anything, and the 556 is more than capable of puncturing to a vital area. A .22LR it is not.
It's a question of maximizing the round. It's really up to the person what they want, I gave my opinion on it, not biggie.
Oh, yes, and of course you never shoot someone once and hope that's enough. I don't know of any reputable training centre that will tell you anything but to keeping rounds in until they stop.
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Post by Diz on Dec 16, 2014 8:28:33 GMT -5
These kinds of debates about bbl length and such are gay as hell. You take what you have and fight with it. I couldn't give two shits whether it's 12", 14.5", or 16". For the practical application of force from zero to 100m, it's about getting rounds on target and enemy in the dirt. The tool you use to do it, is largely irrelevant, as long as you get the job done. People have a habit of over-thinking these things. Developing the will to shoot someone in the face is more important than fretting over ballistic trivia.
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Dec 16, 2014 11:59:42 GMT -5
Yeah - it's easy to get wrapped around the axle on the barrel length thing. If the AR can penetrate both sides of a steel helmet at 600yards, it will do anything I can ask of it with most any barrel length at any range I'd be engaging people with.
It takes time to make peace with that. Anymore I'm really more concerned with making and keeping the gun reliable.
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Post by omnivorous on Dec 16, 2014 14:29:56 GMT -5
Well, I'd already ordered a complete 16", mid-length upper, and it arrived last week, but I was just interested in the thoughts of the folks on this forum. I had been reading all kinds of opinions other places online, but this place is always the last word when it comes to such things, for me.
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Post by panzer0170 on Dec 16, 2014 14:45:46 GMT -5
These kinds of debates about bbl length and such are gay as hell. You take what you have and fight with it. I couldn't give two shits whether it's 12", 14.5", or 16". For the practical application of force from zero to 100m, it's about getting rounds on target and enemy in the dirt. The tool you use to do it, is largely irrelevant, as long as you get the job done. People have a habit of over-thinking these things. Developing the will to shoot someone in the face is more important than fretting over ballistic trivia. Forgive me if I'm wrong, my understanding if this whole bit is majority theoretical; Doesn't length of barrel affect pressure & therefore reliability? why do the Army & Marines disagree on M16 vs M4 when they're the same less the barrel length? Why does anyone carry a 20" rifle if 16" works just as well? Unofrtunately I can't include practise and training with firearms into my current level of preparedness. I'm aware of mindset and where my limits are at and what I could and couldn't do. I'm hacking away at phys as best I can in the time available to me. That leaves most of my questions being gear related. Some of it is me gearwhoring, some of it is me trying to weigh up whether to bother even TRYING a solution (See the 'materials' thread - current verdict is 'nah, just get a Tavor.') and this is one of those. 16-18" isn't much of a difference but does it affect aim? one thing I am keeping my eye on it the desert-tech mdr-c; I'm not sold on reliabilty because it's still a prototype, but overall length of 20" with 10.5" barrel has a place in my heart! |
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Dec 16, 2014 20:17:34 GMT -5
@panzer....here is a vid from Military Arms Channel of the MDR prototype if you haven't seen it yet.
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Post by andrewe on Dec 17, 2014 0:04:59 GMT -5
One point about the Marines/Army M16A4/M4 thing... Per this blog, the USMC are looking to field M4 Carbines for their Infantrymen. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Dec 17, 2014 2:09:53 GMT -5
@panzer....here is a vid from Military Arms Channel of the MDR prototype if you haven't seen it yet. Cheers PS - That's exactly where I first really had my eyes turned to it. Given that they're still in the 3D printed stage for parts, there's a long way yet to go before I'd want one for anything more than a range toy.  |
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