The Great Debate: 16" vs 18" vs 20" Barrel Lengths

[Diz]

Guys, on this Army/USMC thing, don't forget institutional bias and plain bull-headedness (Brits: Bloodymindedness). The army has traditionally been embracing "combat" shooting in the last few decades, stressing shooting under field conditions, and unknown distances. Remember, the airborne and rangers, and now SF have always driven the bus on this stuff. Whatever these guys do, generally big army follows. So in this case, when SF embraces the M-4, big army (to their credit) follows suit. The focus has been shooting at typical engagement ranges, say 0 to 200m. A 14.5" M-4 with M855 is perfectly capable of good hits in this range.

Then you have the Crotch. In their infinite wisdom, they still cling to this myth of the Marine Corps RIFLEMAN being the king of all he survey's. You gotta understand, for those of you that never went through it, the indoctrination you go through is intense. We are immersed in MC legend and lore, about our rifleman and their daring do, from Belleau Wood, Guadalcanal, Chosin Reservoir, Khe San, etc. The emphasis has ALWAYS been on every Marine a Rifleman. Which means we practice long distance shooting on known distance ranges. Which is why the powers that be insist on staying with a 20" bbl. This is a good example of the cult and culture of an organization stifling innovation. What Marines should be carrying is a M-4 instead of that POS M-16A-whatever. And then, they have they unmitigated gall to point the finger at the army and sniff, you guys just don't know how to shoot. Yeah, if you mean nice manicured KD ranges with target rifles.

So the upshot of all this, you have two institutions with dramatically different approaches to the subject, hence two entirely different solutions. I have to say, the army actually is closer to the bone in this instance. If you are a big .gov military unit, and you have all the time and money to do this shit, then yeah, research all this shit and MAYBE come to some reasonable conclusion. But as we've seen, this has been driven by institutional bias, career-building, and vendor greed, so a good outcome is not guaranteed.

If you are a civilian prepper, and you don't necessarily have all the time and money (although we sure as hell try), then you need to figure out what may be available to fight with, and make sure you know how to operate it. Again, this is more akin to the SF dude studying weapons he is likely to encounter, on the off-chance he will have to fight with, or train others to fight with.

With this in mind, I wouldn't get too attached to any one rifle, or bbl length in this case. I happen to think that a 16" bbl with a mid-length system makes a great rifle, if you have a choice. But if you don't, then any rifle will do. Even that piece of shit M-16A4.

[panzer0170]

I did wonder, but we don't have that same issue here - Not big enough for the Army to wave it's collective dick seperately to the RN or RAF. SA80A2 is -THE- primary weapon of anyone who isn't infantry (where it depends on role, but it's still the first thing they're taught, naturally) unless you're tank crew or aircrew (tiny carbine, 20rd magazine fitted - so you can get it out and fit it somewhere inside with you without catching it all over the place...)

I'm thinking a 16" Tavor, M4 style AR, and a 5.56 AK to start with (because same ammo, trg costs/simplicity) and then maybe get a 'proper' AK down the line when money dictates.

[UnforseenWeather]

Dec 16, 2014 20:17:34 GMT -5 Patriotic Sheepdog said:

@panzer....here is a vid from Military Arms Channel of the MDR prototype if you haven't seen it yet.

That looks like a very nice option when they get the wrinkles all ironed out. I had only seen the preproduction model on the SHOT videos.

Looks like they're going to offer it up for militaries as well - interesting.

[panzer0170]

Seems to be a BIT of a re-hash of the Tavor. It's main trick seems to be the interchangeable barrels (which, granted, the Tavor TECHNICALLY has... But they never delivered.) Given that that feature is DT's trademark THING on their bolt action bullpups... Depending on quite how that works and holding a zero, that could make for a really nice standard rifle with just bolt/barrel and a tool, perhaps a fancy scope to convert it to a DMR rather than messing about with another rifle.

I'm still mega giddy about the -C - 20" all up length? Pretty sure that comparing that in the shoulder to a properly held handgun, you might actually be taking up LESS space with a rifle than with a pistol. WIN.

[eddiewouldclearhot]

Someone wise once told me about all the worry about which rifle/handgun: Its the indian, not the arrow.

Still, I hate glocks. : )

I run a hodge built 16 mid length and... a glock 19.

[winter]

Dec 17, 2014 18:14:03 GMT -5 eddiewouldclearhot said:

Someone wise once told me about all the worry about which rifle/handgun: Its the indian, not the arrow.

.

I need any rifle, any knife, and any gear. Everything past that is luxury.

[Diz]

Choice is nice. Innovation is cool. We all like new toys. Trying to get the best system available is a worthy goal.

But when it comes to a rifle, it's all about your mission. If we're talking serious self-defense, then I want the most reliable weapon possible. If this is merely a hobby, then experiment all you want.

If I have any choice in the matter, I want something that is battle-proven, over decades of service. I don't want to risk my life R&Ding something new, regardless of how innovative or cool it may be. New weapons systems frequently have problems, both large and small, from new design features, manufacturing techniques, etc. Things that don't come out until hard use under field conditions. If a weapon doesn't have a MINIMUM of 20 years of field service, I would say it's not worthy of consideration. 40-50 years is better.

If I don't have any choice, I fight with what I have.

To the OP, bbl length is largely a function of your terrain and situation. If a more compact package is good for you, run it, regardless of ballistics. With that said, a light-weight, 16" bbl, mid length gas system, with collapsible buttstock is a nice balance between being handy, and effective. I think this is the ultimate evolution of the M-16/AR-15 weapons system. Purists might argue that the gas tube length does not meet my criteria, but that's such a minor difference that I don't think it will be any factor.

[hudson5969]

IIRC the whole reason behind the 18.1" Tavor is to have enough length to mount a grenade launcher.

It's also along-stroke piston system, so not so sensitive to changes in pressure as the DI systems.

Further, while arguing about what gear you have may be gay, but when someone is asking about a future purchase, it's worth going over.

[Diz]

The problem with our current sit is that we have WAY too many fucking choices. You get mired in all these discussions about all these different choices, from all these different perspectives (3-gun, airsoft, whatever). You can spend years jocking up with just the right kit, and chasing the latest fashions. Why do I know this? Because that's exactly what I used to do.

I have seen all these discussions in the magazine articles for up-teen years. I have read all these threads on-line a few years as well. The problem I have with this particular discussion is it got out in the weeds discussing ballistics as a prime factor in weapons selection. This is a hobby point of view. This forum is about preparing for possible real world use. In that regard, you use whatever is at hand at the time. It really doesn't matter if it's the tricked-out set up you built or a battle field pick-up.

Guys I love building and shooting all this stuff as well, but in the end, they're all just tools. You build what's best for you in your terrain and situation. You build them at a price point that you can afford at least one more cached off-site. You don't worry about ballistics not being perfect. You buy the bbl length that suits your purposes.

If you want to endlessly cuss and discuss ballistics and what-not, then you're at the wrong website. There are plenty of places that love to argue this crap all day long.

[hudson5969]

Dec 23, 2014 8:11:11 GMT -5 Diz said:

TThe problem I have with this particular discussion is it got out in the weeds discussing ballistics as a prime factor in weapons selection. This is a hobby point of view. This forum is about preparing for possible real world use. In that regard, you use whatever is at hand at the time. It really doesn't matter if it's the tricked-out set up you built or a battle field pick-up

Since I brought ballistics to the table I will answer.

We aren't talking about battlefield pick ups here, at the time we started talking about a guy wanting to build one, so all the choices are open.  Since I don't know his situation, ultimate end goal or terrain, I gave my reasoning for why I chose a 20"

First and foremost is reliability.  The 20" setup was pretty much perfected with the M16A2.  I have heard very few complaints of a reliability type from users of an M16A2 or A4. 

The 16" midlength also has a great reputation for reliability.  So the second criteria was terminal ballistics.  There's no way to spin it to say that the 20" ballistics are not superior to the 16".  Since what is most likely to be stocked (because of price) and found (because of the nature of the people it may be found on, and the price) is going to be M193 and M855.  Both do considerably more damage when they fragment, and reliable fragmentation happens in those rounds above 2700 fps.  Which mean a greater fragmentation range from the 20".

You will note that every criteria was about coming up with a viable battlefield weapon, and has nothing to do with hobbies or gun games (in fact, the longer barrel is a detriment for most gun games because they are almost entirely geared around urban close-quarters, and people design their gear around speed and not functionality (where the current fad of dropping every magazine you have to the deck seems to come from, but I digress).

In my line of thinking, when someone is talking about a purchase, or a build, "settle for whatever you can get" is the wrong answer.  Now is the time to optimize for the conditions you foresee using the piece of equipment in.  "Settling" comes later when the merde has impacted the ventilateur, and now you take what you can get.

Dude made his decision to go with a 16".  Fine by me.  But I'd appreciate not being accused of being a hobbyist because I look for details not covered in current military or "cool guy" doctrines.

[Diz]

Don't get your panties in a wad. I think you're a good contributor here. In fact, I was the one who first brought you up for consideration for the rig give-away. I didn't even recall who it was that brought up ballistics. So it was not even directed at you, not purposely anyway.

You called me out first with your comment on all this being gay. Then Panzer piled on with his "like". You are free to say just about anything here. But so am I. If we disagree about something, let's leave it at that. If you want to always be right and have the last word, get your own website. Take your buddy Panzer with ya. I don't give a shit.

You said your piece, I said mine.

You don't appreciate being called a hobbyist, fine. I don't appreciate being called out on my own website.

[panzer0170]

To be fair, I was liking the info about the tavor's somewhat random 18" BBL being to do with grenade launchers, not piling on any argument. If I wanted to weigh in on an argument I'd use my words. You'll notice I liked your post too, mate. Doesn't mean I agree/disagree with any/all of it, just that there was SOMETHING in there I thought was massively relevant (or in other threads amusing or witty).

[hudson5969]

Fair enough.

[omnivorous]

^My face at this point.

[Hawkeye]

I don't know why, but that made me laugh out loud.

Lets all take a break, catch our breath, and enjoy a couple of days of relaxation for Christmas. I think when you get a lot of Alpha male type A personalities around each other, there's occasionally going to be heads that bump. Anyone that's been in the military can relate to that. So much is lost via the written word vs. spoken, it just adds to the problem. I'm going to go enjoy some of my wifes baked ham and turkey for a day or two. Don't make me get the fire hose out when I come back.