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Post by Erick on Oct 9, 2016 12:19:27 GMT -5
ok most of us aren't noobs and dont need to look of firing stances... and I am not a unequivocal fan of the big "pop" schools of shooting but I really like Larry Vicker's short but nuanced treatment of firing stances.
Great for new shooters or old shooters stuck in the 2 extremes of firing position IMHO.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 9, 2016 13:45:06 GMT -5
Every time I see Larry Vickers trying to explain something I cry for every left handed person that has to watch someone elses videos and go 'yeah, so I flip that, flip that, and do this, and that's it, right?'
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Post by whitebear620 on Oct 9, 2016 15:25:48 GMT -5
Every time I see Larry Vickers trying to explain something I cry for every left handed person that has to watch someone elses videos and go 'yeah, so I flip that, flip that, and do this, and that's it, right?' Never realized he was left handed. Sucks doesn't it Panzer?  |
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 9, 2016 15:59:00 GMT -5
Every time I see Larry Vickers trying to explain something I cry for every left handed person that has to watch someone elses videos and go 'yeah, so I flip that, flip that, and do this, and that's it, right?' Never realized he was left handed. Sucks doesn't it Panzer? Is it because you, yourself, are... Sinister? (Medieval for left handed! Because lefties are evil!) |
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Post by whitebear620 on Oct 9, 2016 18:09:51 GMT -5
Never realized he was left handed. Sucks doesn't it Panzer? Is it because you, yourself, are... Sinister? (Medieval for left handed! Because lefties are evil!) That depends who you ask, but as a protestant I protest that way of thinking.  |
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 9, 2016 19:13:57 GMT -5
Is it because you, yourself, are... Sinister? (Medieval for left handed! Because lefties are evil!) That depends who you ask, but as a protestant I protest that way of thinking. I bet you protest fair taxation of Tea, too! |
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Post by whitebear620 on Oct 9, 2016 20:41:37 GMT -5
 Realized what a huge thread derailment this is. My apologies, I'll stop my shenanigans now.  |
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Post by Erick on Oct 10, 2016 7:13:09 GMT -5
No worries about the little hi-jack.. It was fun and activity is always good in a forum that's not huge.
Now I realize , as I said before, that most here are not noobs..but I did recently invite a few of them on here and I do know they are lurking so this discussion will be beneficial to some
But I find his treatment of stances laudbale .. because he does not get real doctrinaire about the "square off" firing postion.
Jerry Miculek shoots his AR in the old school blades stance..
And that stance is the distillation of generations of shooters for the best ergonomics to hit something at distance.
What Larry Vickers appears to want to accomplish is combining the benefits of both as much as posisble with his mixed stance.
I admit I often find myself unthinkingly defaulting to the mixed stance myself whereas on short distance the pure square stance is likely more appropriate.
BTW I do not think the engine behind the square stance is just "presenting the plate", thats what they use to teach people but its really more complex than that and has to do with stability, speed of change etc.
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Post by whitebear620 on Oct 10, 2016 8:39:25 GMT -5
I guess I find myself in a mixed stance mostly, don't shoot/dryfire a lot looking in a mirror.
I was taught blade stance growing up, but taught square in the Guard (specifically because of the plate according to them). I find blade to be most steady and really don't see an issue with speed and short distances with it, but it makes mag changes from a chest rig harder for me, it's also more natural for me in a mixed stance to go prone or kneeling.
But I think a plus for square is that it has more use in different scenarios, walking down a hallway in your house you're probably already in a square stance when brining your rifle up, coming up behind cover you're probably already in a square stance, ect.
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Post by trailrunner909 on Oct 10, 2016 12:38:51 GMT -5
Jerry Miculek and Kyle Defoor both advocate for a relatively neutral position.
Position advice starts at 6:05 ish
Defoors take on standing, sitting, and kneeling:
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Post by ncregularguy on Oct 10, 2016 16:39:46 GMT -5
OK, time to go against the grain here, but please bear with me.
All of the people mentioned above know what they are doing and know what they are talking about. I'm no questioning that at all.
Here is what I'll say about shooting stance (your word, not mine) after teaching more than a few people how to shoot.
If you are trying to learn from a guy writing a book or a guy in a video, you're going to get what you have above. Great examples of what works great 'for them'.
Unless you are Larry Vickers, and I'll just use him as the example to get my point across since he was the first video, trying to emulate Larry isn't going to help you very much.
For those of you who do not know Larry, he has some medical issue derived from years of being there and doing that. His body is paying for it now.
Due to Larry's medical issues, size, weight (yes I said it, but I also gave the reason behind it) and his anatomical dimensions that effect us all, Larry's stance (and I really hate that word, I try to use the term platform) is 'optimal' for Larry and probably nobody else unless you have the same set of circumstances Larry does.
We are all unique and different. What works for me probably will not work 'optimally' for you or anyone else. We are just different.
Height, weight, arm length, flexibility, strength, injuries, experience, etc, etc all play a part.
What I have found is that if an instructor understands anatomy and physiology along with what needs to occur, they can optimize a platform/stance unique to the shooter. Keeping in mind that in real gunfights we are rarely static for that 'stance' to be truly effective. Gunfights, at least the ones I've been involved with, are rather dynamic affairs and standing around in a stance in problematic, but that is really semantics. That is why I like the term platform vs. stance, but again semantics.
So, take an average (if there is such a thing) guy, 5'11" 180 or so, healthy, fit, no injuries, plenty of flexibility, all around good to go. Would he benefit from Larry's position that is optimized for him and his set of circumstances? Not really.
How about a lighter guy at say 150 or so? Where Larry has that extra weight to assist in recoil mitigation and stability (yes, there are benefits to extra weight) the little/light guy might need to rely on different positioning.
So, to end, you may want to emulate what you see in a video or book, but is that really optimal for you and your body type?
To get something that really works specifically for you and optimizes all of your traits and characteristics is only going to come from in person instruction by someone who knows what they are doing and can observe the way you shoot and offer feedback on improvements. A guy in a video or book cannot do that in real time..
Just my opinion.
Take care,
k
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 10, 2016 16:48:10 GMT -5
ncregularguy ; I don't think anything you're saying is wrong, and I think you're actually agreeing with the original post AND LV... He's giving 2 options in a video a few minutes long. I'm sure if you were shooting with him he'd give more pointers, but one thing you have to remember about youtube videos (and all presentation and teaching) is information overload. The post you made the other day reference medical 'stuff' in a protracted engagement or crappy situation beyond just 'hospital' care was fantastic... But if we dug down into it we could say that there are better ways of doing X and Y. You kept it short, and for those of us with less experience in the field it's a helpful post. Those with a bit more knowledge should be able to start poking holes in your argument (questioningly, not to dismiss it) and from there an in depth, personalised 'plan' could be built. And I promise that none of those plans would be the same, which is what I think you're saying about shooting stances, and which is, still, right. whitebear620 ;
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323 
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Post by protus on Oct 19, 2016 4:37:46 GMT -5
The main thing I took away from it.
Dont be so stuck in one method..over looking what could do better for you.
Dont be swayed back..chicken winging it..that's regulated to hardcore pros..... lol
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 20, 2016 14:33:17 GMT -5
The main thing I took away from it. Dont be so stuck in one method..over looking what could do better for you. Dont be swayed back..chicken winging it..that's regulated to hardcore pros..... lol Which is notably the best stance to take on... most things. What is better, the AK or the AR? Are traditional rifles better than bullpups? How should I hold my gun? "Well, it depends..." |
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Oct 21, 2016 5:31:26 GMT -5
The main thing I took away from it. Dont be so stuck in one method..over looking what could do better for you. Dont be swayed back..chicken winging it..that's regulated to hardcore pros..... lol Which is notably the best stance to take on... most things. What is better, the AK or the AR? Are traditional rifles better than bullpups? How should I hold my gun? "Well, it depends..." We all know the AK is more dependable than a bull pup............ lol |
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