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Post by Ivarr Bergmann on Jul 7, 2015 15:27:37 GMT -5
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jul 7, 2015 18:58:42 GMT -5
Nice write up. My heart started beating hard just reading your story. Thanks....
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 8, 2015 1:16:24 GMT -5
Man, Bergmann, that's one hell of a story! Thank you, for sharing it with us.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Jul 8, 2015 5:32:06 GMT -5
I felt under gunned when an adolescent bull moose charged at me and I had a 7400 rem. In 30/06..... Same scenario kinda...drop off behind me..luckily I kinda put some trees between us...and at less that 10 yards...he decided to.flank and go his way... 1st id ever seen a moose....I never knew how big they were and this one wasn't even full grown..like a Clydesdale horse with antlers!
Great story.....I'm glad our blackies aren't as aggressive as those brown's.
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Post by Erick on Jul 14, 2015 17:55:26 GMT -5
1)Although I understand the "Cheapest and lightest" mindset, I'm more about "Reliable and effective". 2) The 5.56, especially in the 62gr. green tip, is not a very effective cartridge, especially against non body armor wearing enemy (look it up). I only use 55gr FMJ in my AR's (Yes, I have AR's for myself, my children and Girlfriend), and understand the original intent and "Design for effectiveness" that the AR15 was supposed to fit, and did have. 3) Ask my friend Bergmann about the effectiveness of the 5.45, he used one to kill a charging grizzly. Personally, if your reason for using the AR is prior military training and familiarity, that's fine. 4)But saying I'm going with the cheapest, and lightest (ammo) is ridiculous premise for something that is supposed to save your life, when you have no back up for resupply (you should want efficient effectiveness). 5)Ammoman.com today has .223/5.56 on average of $.27 a rnd per thousand, the 7.62S is $.23 a rnd, and the 5.45 is $.25 a rnd (the .308 is usually twice the .223 cost). AR's are averaging $800 for a rifle. .30 cal AKM are averaging around $550, and Ak74 are averaging $600. 6) Our purpose as Survivalists, isn't wounding the enemy (one of the original reasons the 5.56 was adopted), 7) The .308 is a more effective killer than the 5.56, and simple ballistics tell us this. 8) As far as what your ammo load/weight is, well, I carry one 50 rnd drum (ruck), and nine 20rnders in my gear for my M1A's. I have 150 rounds on strippers in my ruck, for a total of 400 rounds. I carry nine 30's and a 75 rnd drum (ruck) for my AKMS in my gear, and 200 rounds on strippers in my ruck, for a total of 500 rnds for the AK. I carry eleven 30's on my gear for the AR, and 140 rounds on strippers in my ruck, for a total of 500 rounds. 9) Don't ask me what the weight difference is, because I don't know or care .. 10) I carry what I need to, to fit the situation/scenario I find myself in. 11) If you can only have one rifle, there's nothing wrong with it being a 5.56 AR, but don't try to sugarcoat the facts of real effectiveness, versus implied savings and more ammo carrying potential (spray and pray ability). JC: I am not much of a writer, but I have done system acquisition and Operational Concepts generation for the Army and Joint Force for a living. Let's see if I can get the point across, Please read your points ( I numbered them for the readership) and then my counter points one-by-one: 1) yes but reliable and effective is not just a function of ballistics but actually hitting someone in reflexive fire. I shoot 1000 rds of 5.56mm a month That would be unaffordable with 308. That is why this more affordability adds to the EFFECTIVENESS of 5.56mm. It's lesser recoil also adds to easier/faster/ more accurate follow up shots. 2) I dont recommend green tip , dont carry it and dont recommend it to my friends. Unusually use 62 gr HP for my carry loads but sometimes M193.The absence of the penetrator also often makes for more accurate ammo. The fact that green tip exists is not germane to our analysis. 3) Am well aware of what happened there. You just made my point for me. Ammo in this class was sufficient to kill a grizzly. So clearly his class of ammo has reached the good-enough point. No need to upgrade and suffer the penalties of the bigger round. Once your Ammo is "good enough" you start looking at affordability (for training) and weight ( for a myriad of other reasons)4) Again you make my point for me. Think about what you are writing " no chance of resupply"?? So its EVEN MORE critical to be able ot carry a larger number of rounds. 5) Again you make my point for me...... affordability is not for convenience it is for PROFICIENCY, very very few people can afford to do updrills for all afternoon on 308. I can't, Can you? 6)+ 7) true enough. But most studies out there also point to the primacy of shot placement. This is often a function of proficiency. See point #5 8) How matter how strong you are personally (I admit you are a big guy + so am I) but even if you can carry 500 rds 308 You could carry much more in 5.56 which would make you more effective in gaining fire superiority and/or better sustain you when resupply is not an option. And the 308 imposes other penalties than just the weight of Ammo. It is also the weight of the weapons system and its spare parts. They are now all heavier since they have to be designed to a greater load to accommodate the higher-than-good-enough kinetic loads placed on them. 9) This shows you have not performed a proper emotion-free cost-benefit analysis, Cost here is not just money but lost agility, reduced ammo count and therefore sustainability, lower proficiency due to high round count training being less (un?) affordable etc etc.. 10) I'll grant that in some situations where LOS is large 308 might be worth it's penalties. Maybe a guy operates exclusively in the mountains outside of woods/cities, the the extra long range oomph is great ( weight is more of an issue then though isn't it?) ... Or more likely, if you field a forced thats large enough it calls for specialized capability and you can afford to lose the short range firepower in a couple of guys, say a Squad on up, I can easily imagine a couple guys being equipped with 308 to present the opponent with a diverse threat he has to defend against and give you more tactical options. ...But I do not think we should encourage survivalists as INDIVIDUALS to switch to a heavier caliber. 11) true enough but outside of environments where the ballistic superiority of the 308 is a key Performance parameter (KPP) its a lot of extra capability "bought" at significant expense in supportability, agility (falling to a booby trap a less exhausted man would have spotted etc etc etc).But most environments are urban, suburban, or wooded in our AO. The Expensive (and by that I mean not just in money) extra capability of 308 will likely not earn its keep. Not sure what "spray and pray" has to do with this analysis.. more ammo carry capability (or same ammo with less exhaustion and better agility) is critical where there is little to no resupply and a lot of foot marching. And both of those are Key Performance Parameters for the caliber of our weapons system as armed civilians unlike ballistic performance. In summary (except by exception) the 308 vs 5.56 caliber debate for the standard foot-troop, is settled military science, even in the main stream military ..... ...But for the armed civilian all the arguments in favor of 5.56 weigh even heavier than in the .mil as we cannot rely on a generous log system for heavy ammo, we cannot rely on frequent resupply, we must win and finish the fight with the number of shots we have on our person, we are not full time soldier-athletes and we do not have access to the huge fleet of trucks and helos to get us were we are going.. we must hoof it with all we carry. For all those reasons the direction we must go in, is the opposite: lighter than the .mil not heavier...
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Post by Erick on Jul 15, 2015 18:40:42 GMT -5
PS: Please understand that the above is written in the spirit of open and lively discussion and not intended to be interpreted as having a disrespectful tone in any way We are all on the same side trying to break the same code "What is the best TTP for armed civilians?"
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Post by DeadeyeD on Jul 15, 2015 19:26:01 GMT -5
1) " yes but reliable and effective is not just a function of ballistics but actually hitting someone in reflexive fire." Unfortunately, that was exactly what was meant from a practical "rounds per stop" analysis. Your skill,PT level, or a lack thereof has nothing to do with the round's inherent characteristics, that's a purely subjective, non scientific argument. I guess that means I should carry a .22 handgun for protection, because I can practice more,there's less recoil, etc. and there are effective rounds that will kill bad guys. right? 3)Bergmann dumped a number (read as A LOT!) of rounds on target 1] because they ware needed, and 2] Because he had no where to go. Ask him what he would have rather been carrying. Most, especially in that area, carry what they can afford, not necessarily what they want to, and no self respecting hunter would hunt a Grizzly with that caliber. Bergmann wasn't hunting. 4) Exactly what are you preparing for, just infantry combat, or overall survival in a non permissive scenario where you will probably use your weapon as much or more for food procurement for the family, than you will fighting the "mongolian cannibals". That equates to the need for efficient kills of big game, among other things. I've killed dozens of deer (how b'bout you) with .223 and .308, and there is no comparison, especially at range. Reading a "Study" doesn't equate to time in the field, doing real, "practical" analysis. 5) You believe you have to fire a round, every time you level the rifle? Muscle memory in cheek weld, sight acquisition and trigger squeeze (the main point of the "Up" drill, and many others) doesn't require noise or recoil. If so, dry fire practice would be an ineffective means of training. 6+7) I think I addressed this in the article "The difference is this. it is easier to get the pulmonary or circulatory hit (larger target area) than it is to get the central nervous system hit." Easier, especially when your tired equates to more of a possibility of success. 8) Being a big guy does not necessarily equate to what you can carry, or your PT level. You're tellin' a guy who carried 16 thirty round mags (on the fighting load)for his M4, 20 rounds for his shotgun, and 4 extra mags for his pistol into actual combat about weight? You're tellin' a guy who carried a SAW for three years (with four 200rnd boxes on the LBE) about weight. Tell me about fire superiority when it's just you, or you and a buddy. What would you rather hide behind a tree from, .223 or .308 (even if they both go through, which do you think would do more damage)? at 900 meters, what would you rather be shot at with, a SAW, or a 240? 9) "This shows you have not performed a proper emotion-free cost-benefit analysis." I've been doing "emotion free cost to benefit analysis" for approximately 30 years, how 'bout you? I was shooting up a case of ammo a month 25 years ago, and came to the conclusion that for the Survivalist, the .308 was the better round for all purpose use, and there was more to being a Survivalist than shooting my paycheck up. Common Grunts don't use 5.56 because they have a choice, they use it because it is what's given to them, and those who can choose (usually SF types) choose the .308. 10) "But I do not think we should encourage survivalists as INDIVIDUALS to switch to a heavier caliber." I didn't say it was for everybody, here's what I said "Is the .308 for everybody? HELL NO! In a Survival group, I advocate the 5.56 for women, children, and smaller statured and/or older men, simply because carrying a .308 battle rifle is more work (more bang for the buck though) than it is to carry an equal amount of 5.56 ammo, and a comparable 5.56 caliber combat rifle (can’t be an effective combatant if you can’t effectively carry your weapon)." 11) "The Expensive (and by that I mean not just in money) extra capability of 308 will likely not earn its keep." That's a big subjective assumption, based on your inability or lack of desire to carry a heavier load, but hey, it's "efficient" right? "the 308 vs 5.56 caliber debate for the standard foot-troop, is settled military science, even in the main stream military.". Obviously you haven't read some of the findings concerning the military caliber debate that I have. "...But for the armed civilian all the arguments in favor of 5.56 weigh even heavier than in the .mil as we cannot rely on a generous log system for heavy ammo, we cannot rely on frequent resupply, we must win and finish the fight with the number of shots we have on our person, we are not full time soldier-athletes and we do not have access to the huge fleet of trucks and helos to get us were we are going.. we must hoof it with all we carry. For all those reasons the direction we must go in, is the opposite: lighter than the .mil not heavier..." I get it.....Erick's not carrying the SAW (18lbs, or the included loadout) when not if we acquire one, right? They are kinda heavy, right
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Post by Erick on Jul 15, 2015 20:37:29 GMT -5
JC, I'll gladly carry the SAW over the M240 anytime especially w/ equal Ammo I think we'll just have to agree to disagree
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Post by DeadeyeD on Jul 15, 2015 20:42:32 GMT -5
Me too, I carried a 240 back when we were calling the "man portable" a MAG, and it didn't have a handguard.
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Post by Ivarr Bergmann on Jul 16, 2015 2:42:11 GMT -5
3)Bergmann dumped a number (read as A LOT!) of rounds on target 1] because they ware needed, and 2] Because he had no where to go. Ask him what he would have rather been carrying. Most, especially in that area, carry what they can afford, not necessarily what they want to, and no self respecting hunter would hunt a Grizzly with that caliber. Bergmann wasn't hunting. Bergmann wished he had a 308. He still does. Maybe one day. I knew i had to make every shot count. I even remember thinking that as i fired...Any closer and that bear would have gotten the rest of the mag square in its face. You dont know how short 10 feet is until a 600lbs grizzly is standing at the other end of it and you dont know if hes gonna stop. Its not like a human. he doesn't know what a bullet is. However that 545 fuked that bears insides up right well and true, still i want a semi auto 308 to sit a bear down proper like. I would rather had a 762/308 battle rifle any day of the week over 556. Not just for bear, but as a weapon to have when the hammer drops. Id take a 545 over the 556 any day too. The only reason I carry and M4 now is because they are all around so common. Bergmann
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