|
|
Post by DeadeyeD on Jun 30, 2015 18:34:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Jun 30, 2015 20:22:00 GMT -5
Nice article JC I'll bite and discuss.  Your arguments are well reasoned out and the ability to outrage/outpenetrate enemies equipped with the common smaller caliber is not trivial... and perhaps should be in your group as a fire support element..but for the common Infantry rifle, the adage "weight is the enemy" applies even more to the civ 1st Defender than to the .mil troops. I myself am a bigger guy, but I still value the greater combat persistency that being able to carry more ammo gives me. That in and of itself settles the argument for me,....... but one can also look at it this way: Not ask "what is the most powerful standard round that is still light enough to carry in operational quantities?" (yes, that's the 308) .......... but I believe the correct question should be "What is the cheapest/lightest round that will meet my Key Performance Parameters" or in other words I ask myself: "What is the lightest/cheapest standard round I can carry that still works reliably on healthy adult male humans at common infantry engagement distances". That's the .223/5.56 |
|
|
|
Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jun 30, 2015 20:25:32 GMT -5
Nice write up JC....thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Jun 30, 2015 20:59:33 GMT -5
Great read, very thought provoking. I always thought I'd be just carrying what my group carried just for compatibility ... now I'm thinking there could be room for my M1A in the mix.
Good read!
|
|
|
|
Post by odgreen on Jun 30, 2015 21:27:09 GMT -5
Excellent read, well done!!! We have several .308 rifles in the inventory to include the M1A and FAL. The M1A is and excellent rifle, is easy to maintain and do field work on, very reliable in warm and cold weather field conditions, etc. From my personal field experience, the traditional LSA grease works well but can be sluggish in sub-zero weather, I have had great performance in subzero (-37F) with Slip2000 EWL. I will agree on the weight issue with the .308 rifles, especially in carrying an ammo loadout on your body. My preference to .308 rifles is for hunkering down, or riding in vehicles. If I am on foot by myself or in a small group, then I tend to opt for an AR15.
|
|
|
|
Post by omnivorous on Jul 1, 2015 1:30:12 GMT -5
I like that idea of having team members carrying a couple extra mags for the .308 users. Its the same concept of squad members carrying some extra ammo for the squad automatics. Since ACs in community protection groups would more than likely not have automatic fire capability, nor the the capability to feed it for long if they did, compensating by stepping-up calibers and increasing precision of their fires, seems like a logical direction to go.
|
|
protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323 
|
Post by protus on Jul 1, 2015 5:20:08 GMT -5
I was a x51 fanboy for years. Still am and still have mine.
But......as i matured and more grey hairs grew. Ive found lugging 10-12lbs of rifle that is 4-6 inches longer than my main go to...caught on fast.
I went middle of the road because of compatibilty...engagement distances(sub 200 yards here ) and performance.
I went with x39. As a compromise...
My x51 has its place...which is why it sits reasy to go with a dedicated kit for it ready to roll.
|
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Jul 1, 2015 10:06:04 GMT -5
I like that idea of having team members carrying a couple extra mags for the .308 users. Its the same concept of squad members carrying some extra ammo for the squad automatics. Since ACs in community protection groups would more than likely not have automatic fire capability, nor the the capability to feed it for long if they did, compensating by stepping-up calibers and increasing precision of their fires, seems like a logical direction to go. Agree 100% Everyone should be carrying a reasonably equal amount anyway. Your medic is not going to have a full combat loadout because he's got a full medical loadout. It might be that you each carry HIM a spare, and in return you don't all lug his gear round just so he can carry med gear. If someone is unequally loaded they are going to tire quicker. Obviously, this needs tailoring to specific groups. There's a reason GPMG/Mortar types are all giants and built like brick shithouses, and you never see a runt carrying a Gimpy... |
|
|
|
Post by omnivorous on Jul 2, 2015 1:14:35 GMT -5
I like that idea of having team members carrying a couple extra mags for the .308 users. Its the same concept of squad members carrying some extra ammo for the squad automatics. Since ACs in community protection groups would more than likely not have automatic fire capability, nor the the capability to feed it for long if they did, compensating by stepping-up calibers and increasing precision of their fires, seems like a logical direction to go. Agree 100% Everyone should be carrying a reasonably equal amount anyway. Your medic is not going to have a full combat loadout because he's got a full medical loadout. It might be that you each carry HIM a spare, and in return you don't all lug his gear round just so he can carry med gear. If someone is unequally loaded they are going to tire quicker. Obviously, this needs tailoring to specific groups. There's a reason GPMG/Mortar types are all giants and built like brick shithouses, and you never see a runt carrying a Gimpy... To go a step further, the buddy team which has a .308 in it, the non-.308 user in it could act like an assistant gunner, and carrying extra ammo for the .308 user and/or act as a spotter for longer range situations. I'm sure I'm not breaking any ground hear, obviously, but I still like to get my thoughts down.  |
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Jul 2, 2015 16:21:43 GMT -5
Agree 100% Everyone should be carrying a reasonably equal amount anyway. Your medic is not going to have a full combat loadout because he's got a full medical loadout. It might be that you each carry HIM a spare, and in return you don't all lug his gear round just so he can carry med gear. If someone is unequally loaded they are going to tire quicker. Obviously, this needs tailoring to specific groups. There's a reason GPMG/Mortar types are all giants and built like brick shithouses, and you never see a runt carrying a Gimpy... To go a step further, the buddy team which has a .308 in it, the non-.308 user in it could act like an assistant gunner, and carrying extra ammo for the .308 user and/or act as a spotter for longer range situations. I'm sure I'm not breaking any ground hear, obviously, but I still like to get my thoughts down. No ground broken, but it might not have ever been COVERED by some. Always nice to say it out loud, especially if YOU think it's obvious. There are things that we all do (be that formed militaries or otherwise) that we treat as basics that other people think is either amazing skills or dumb. For example; Why don't you all own a fucking smock already?  |
|
|
|
Post by omnivorous on Jul 3, 2015 0:21:26 GMT -5
There are things that we all do (be that formed militaries or otherwise) that we treat as basics that other people think is either amazing skills or dumb. For example; Why don't you all own a fucking smock already? Because it would be pretty much a one season garment where I live.  |
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Jul 3, 2015 3:18:51 GMT -5
There are things that we all do (be that formed militaries or otherwise) that we treat as basics that other people think is either amazing skills or dumb. For example; Why don't you all own a fucking smock already? Because it would be pretty much a one season garment where I live. Pshaw! That's because you're not thinking outside the box and are assuming all smocks are heavy The shirt mocked up into a smock is an excellent idea, though I'm not a fan of the lowered zip pockets the concept is brilliant... |
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Jul 3, 2015 5:02:24 GMT -5
Ok, I can't help but to chime go back in...
I still don't get this enthusiasm for the 308 that been gaining traction again lately among people whose judgement I generally respect.
yes its a great performing round that is still affordable (barely) but a fundamental truism in acquisition is to buy the lightest most affordable piece of kit that will do the job.
(When you don't follow this truism you do whats called "gold plating")
In other words you don't ask "whats the biggest bang I can afford and still carry in operational quantities?" but you ask "What is the cheapest/lightest caliber that can accomplish my mission?" .
I think this point is fundamental and how you ask the question will lead you to the right answer.
That's why its important to examine your Key Performance Parameters (KPPs) and seperate the must-have capabilities, from the nice-to-haves.
When engaging humans, not hunting game, this examination is straightforward:
Effects: Humans are physically weak enough that even the healthy adult male (your greatest threat) is significantly affected/killed by 5.56 ...........
and distances:
Until afghanistan 90% (!) of Infantry Combat occured at less than 100 yards and if/when we fight in CONUS with our common woods and conurbanization It will be the same again... I really dont see a role for 308 as a standard combat rifle,outside of the desert west and perhaps those who live in the rural plains.
Now when you have a squad size element should 2 guys maybe have a more powerful caliber to present yourself with extra capabilities and an opponent with an additional and distinct threat set?
Absolutely.. but as standard rifle for the bulk of my team . no.
(That's not even counting the fact that we all have to pay for our own training ammo.. training is critical some of us shoot 1000rds a month and 223/556 is half the price of 308)
|
|
|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Jul 3, 2015 7:46:33 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure nobody has said the whole group should have .308s, did I miss that part?
|
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Jul 3, 2015 9:11:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure nobody has said the whole group should have .308s, did I miss that part? Not sure what that statement has to do w/ my point or why you think I was responding to you. The OP started a discussion about a 7.62x52/308 as primary weapons system. That is what my reply was too. No reason to get defensive. |
|
