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DMR
Feb 24, 2015 16:39:57 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Feb 24, 2015 16:39:57 GMT -5
Ignoring brands, models, personal preferences and all the other stuff;
Is there a role for a DMR within the AC environment?
I'd like to consider this from three seperate viewpoints.
1) ROL; Whatever your situation, right now. Nothing broke and whatever happens the police and 'law' in general is a couple of hours behind any scenario you can imagine.
2) Disaster/National Emergency; Hurricane, Earthquake etc. Something like Katrina; You might have to suck it up for a month or two, but at the end of it all, 'law' is coming back, as you know it. Within reason you've got some play, but we're not going into some sort of civil war scenario.
3) WROL; 6 Months+. Chances are even if law comes back it's going to be 'new'. Think 'regime change', akin to Syria etc.
Let's have your thoughts, one and all.
What are the features of a DM Rifle? Does caliber matter? 5.56? 5.45? x39? x51? What is your personal viewpoint of a DMR vs a standard rifle (ie how are they different? ranges, size, function etc)? How many do you need per standard rifle? Do you want one for yourself, to replace your rifle for certain jobs, or is it something you believe is a specific role?
I am 100% aware that most of the utility of DMR is the DM, not the R. There are, however, clear advantages to things like bipods for making those long shots. I know what -I- think, but I want you chaps to either confirm or deny my thoughts. Perhaps I'll learn something new, especially considering the international viewpoint and how some of the stuff you do I think is crazy, and some of the stuff you do I go... 'Uh, why the fuck don't WE do that?'
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Feb 24, 2015 17:16:44 GMT -5
Most AR's will fill that role with a decent optic.
For those who agree that the primary training needs for the AC is very similar to recon/lrs/lrrp shit, I think heavier weapons and such should be to defend the ranch.
If you have some skilled sniper type dudes to go out as a sniper team/surveillance team, that would be another thing altogether. Those blokes should have dedicated kit for the job.
My next AR build is going to be a 18" with full length gas setup for a DMR type setup. It's not dedicated by any means and would be equally at home on patrol as DM duty.
My avatar is me in the DM role in an Infantry squad. I was like a screen door in a submarine. I didn't fit anywhere and was unable to do effective Infanteering with a bolt gun.
It requires pretty open ground or urban areas for a DM to be used effectively in a overwatch capacity. My terrain is unsuited to it for the most part.
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DMR
Feb 24, 2015 17:33:10 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Feb 24, 2015 17:33:10 GMT -5
Agreed. Decent shot with a half decent rifle = Marksman. Most infanteers I know all rate as Marksman by test standards. Other than kit, is there something beyond a proficiency for shooting that we can say a DMR/DM needs?
Q: They gave you a bolt gun as a DMR? For me, this goes against everything I ever got taught. DMR = Good rifleman, with a rifle more capable of making long distance shots. Be that adding a better scope, bipod, or other means.
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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DMR
Feb 24, 2015 20:32:51 GMT -5
Post by winter on Feb 24, 2015 20:32:51 GMT -5
Your "Q" lacks a "?".
Mid 90's. yeah, the DM used a M24sws. Now I think the jarheads use an A4-a5 or some shit, basically a flattop M16A2. If you really wanna see what works, check what the USMC uses. The Army is too much of a fucking corporate cheerleader. The fact that the ucp cammo was ever issued should tell you Army procurement makes decisions based on something other than practicality and real world needs.
Bipods are a thing that i could never justify here, In flat country I could see a need but otherwise the terrain or treelimbs were the rifle rest.
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DMR
Feb 24, 2015 23:58:21 GMT -5
Post by omnivorous on Feb 24, 2015 23:58:21 GMT -5
When I think of a DMR-style of rifle and concept, I think of the original design intentions of the SVD Dragunov. It was originally designed to extend the range of the infantry squad/platoon, to direct precision fire to priority targets, and still allow the soldier to advance with the rest of the unit and engage at the distances the AKs which the average troops were equipped. It could share ammo with the PK gunners, though, there were special "accurized" ammo developed for the rifle. I think there could be a place for the concept, in the AC spectrum.
The rifle shouldn't chambered for some kind of exotic cartridge nor be exotic itself, either 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, be semi-auto and box mag fed, and accurized and equipped with a quality, higher powered, optic. I'm thinking an at least 18" AR-15, with an at least mid-length gas system, using heavier weight match ammo, with the other added features previously mentioned. This rifle would be able to use reach out further than the rest of the other rifles in the unit (assuming the logical choice for CONUS, the AR-15), use the other ammo and mags from the other ACs in the unit, and direct precise fire against priority targets.
The other option could be an AR-10 style of rifle, using the obviously harder-punching 7.62 NATO, along with all of the other features previously mentioned. There are other 7.62 NATO chambered rifles which could fit in this category, since the rifle is no longer using 5.56 NATO cartridges.
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DMR
Feb 26, 2015 19:02:00 GMT -5
Post by omnivorous on Feb 26, 2015 19:02:00 GMT -5
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DMR
Feb 27, 2015 5:38:29 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Feb 27, 2015 5:38:29 GMT -5
Yeah, what Tim covers is kinda the other end of the scale - sniper to DMR. I'm looking more at the other end. Sure, you can just give your most accurate rifle to your best shot and you've got a DM and a DMR... But there must be some other features to both the user and the weapon. Scope is obvious, being a good shot is obvious.
Anyone who's ever worked near, with, or been one will agree that DM =/= Sniper, and the qualities, skills and tasks required of a sniper are totally different to that of a DM.
What does the DM do? When you come under contact, assuming you stay in the fight, does the DM go static and provide a similar role to the SAW but accurate? Do you move them forward with one of the fireteams? Do they operate under the direct command of the section commander, or are they semi-autonomous within the section/unit and once engaged they're left to pick their own targets and work their magic alone?
I'd be interested to see the US perspective on this, be it Military or elsewise.
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DMR
Feb 27, 2015 7:47:48 GMT -5
Post by waffenmacht on Feb 27, 2015 7:47:48 GMT -5
Good topic. I am actually in the process of building a similar rifle for my collection. Not sure if one would classify it as a DMR, RECCE, or SPR as it is really a combination of all three. Ammo will be whatever groups best, I have a mix of 75 and 77 grain factory ammo to test. I expect the rifle to be a solid 600 yard gun on man-sized steel. It is a budget build, so some of my choices on parts are limited by the cost factor (sub $1500). Here's the breakdown: Colt 15/16 base platform with 16" mid profile, carbine gas (not ideal), 1/8 twist steel (not chrome lined) barrel. AAC 18T flash hider with M4-1000 dedicated suppressor (suppressor was already bought and is not factored into overall cost) Rifle receiver extension, recoil spring, and buffer Magpul MOE rifle stock Geissele 2 Stage (G2S) Trigger (in the mail) Warne 30mm scope mount/rings (not qd) SWFA fixed 6x Mil-Rad optic (awaiting in stock notification) Tango Down bipod (to be purchased) Finish is Cerakote by me
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Post by waffenmacht on Feb 27, 2015 8:15:42 GMT -5
Now let's talk about this rifle in context to Panzer's original post:
Is there a role for a DMR within the AC environment? I hope so. There are hundreds of thousands in private hands here in the Us (whether the owners know it or not)
What are the features of a DM Rifle? Probably semi-auto, accurate out to at least 600 yds. Basically it would need to be more capable of accuracy then a standard rifle, but still able to fill a rifleman's role when/if needed.
Does caliber matter? 5.56? 5.45? x39? x51? Yes. It must be available, and accurate at distance. It must be suited to the distances and terrain of your environment.
What is your personal viewpoint of a DMR vs a standard rifle (ie how are they different? ranges, size, function etc)? Probably semi-auto, accurate out to at least 600 yds. Basically it would need to be more capable of accuracy then a standard rifle, but still able to fill a rifleman's role when/if needed. It would also be equipped with a magnified optic of some sort.
How many do you need per standard rifle? Do you want one for yourself, to replace your rifle for certain jobs, or is it something you believe is a specific role? This would be mission specific. I would not carry one myself. However having one available to the squad would be a plus. It would have more of a specific role such as precision distance shots, precision closer shots, possible used with the magnified optic to scan for threats.
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Post by hudson5969 on Feb 27, 2015 12:02:10 GMT -5
All I can say it what was 'splained to me, whether technically accurate or not.
When I asked, I was told the differences between the sniper and the DM are that the Sniper team is often assigned specific targets to hit, or are given a kill area, with a target list of priority. Their skillset is very different from the regular infantryman, and often their reconnaissance and intel gathering ability is more important than their shooting ability.
The DM on the other hand is a regular infantryman that's a good shot, and his role is to take out high value targets in an engagement (machine gunners, RPGs, things with antennae sticking out of them, people giving orders, etc.
The weapons they use are reflective of their job. The sniper has to have a weapon capable of long range (this person defined long range as "over 800 meters"), and have soem anti-materiel capability, hence the increasing preference for .50BMG and .338 Lapua chambered rifles over the traditional 762x51mm.
The DMR has to be capable of Medium-range shots (out to 800m), and preferably fire the same ammunition and feed from the same magazines as the standard infantry rifle, and perform the role of a standard infantry rifle -- hence why they are typically 18" to 20" rifles with ACOGs instead of 10x scopes.
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DMR
Feb 28, 2015 7:21:36 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 7:21:36 GMT -5
hudson5969; So I think we're all agreed that the DM is a section user, not a specialist expected to go off alone/in a pair. What about his role within the section? Senior bloke with no 'command' responsibility? Any level of Autonomy? Anything I'm missing?
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DMR
Feb 28, 2015 9:49:54 GMT -5
Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 28, 2015 9:49:54 GMT -5
Okay, Im going where I don't know much about the tactics, so take my thoughts as just that. The DM is one of the squad guys. Could he be the command guy...it depends on if he's the one that has the most experience, but he may not be. The DM has been given a task by the command, to help augment the rest of the squad, like may be a hasty overwatch when the rest of the squad is about to make a hasty ambush? The rest of the time, he's one of the squad guys patrolling, etc. He carries a semi auto weapon that utilizes the same caliber (I'm talking in the AC world) that the rest of the team uses so ammo can be shared if needed, but may have a 1-4x, 1-6x or 2.5-10x to glass objects further away.
Now having said that, take the same guy and put a high power scoped bolt action .308/.338/.50/7.62x54 in his hands as the mission is to go to a particular area and take down the bad guys. This is a known ambush that the team has planned and practiced for, based on intel. The command knows he wants something with a little more punch then the scoped AR that the DM normally carries on patrolling. He and another guy (spotter and safety role) will set up away from the planned attack point of the team in an overwatch type role. Is he now a sniper or still a DM? In other words, what I'm asking, is it the weapon that makes him a sniper or is it the mission, or even is it his training when dealing with the sniper vs DM terminology when talking in the AC world?
From what I've read, in the mil role there is not a disagreement between what is a DM or a sniper is. The sniper has attended some sort of advanced training to not just have excellent shooting skills but also the intel gathering, stealth, and other things that go with a highly trained sniper in the mil world.
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DMR
Feb 28, 2015 10:08:44 GMT -5
Post by panzer0170 on Feb 28, 2015 10:08:44 GMT -5
This is one of the things as to the role of a DMR that is a little odd over here; Till recently, we had no DMR as such. EVERY rifleman had a 4x scope. The way we've extended range seems to be by going up a calibre because it's the only way to extend the capability of the user.
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DMR
Feb 28, 2015 11:16:06 GMT -5
Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 28, 2015 11:16:06 GMT -5
I just added a 3x magnifier to sit behind my Aimpoint PRO. It can flip so I can use, or not use depending on what I'm doing. On another set up i just did, I have a 1-4x. I guess my aging eyes likes the magnification.
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Post by hudson5969 on Feb 28, 2015 12:02:04 GMT -5
hudson5969; So I think we're all agreed that the DM is a section user, not a specialist expected to go off alone/in a pair. What about his role within the section? Senior bloke with no 'command' responsibility? Any level of Autonomy? Anything I'm missing? Yes, the DM is a section user, not a specialist. His role -- as I understand it -- is to target high value targets first, and may or may not be directed by a senior NCO. Best to ask a Marine, as that's all I know, is what I've asked Marines.
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