Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 18:15:32 GMT -5
When you take an honest look at Small Unit Training, and by that I mean Basic Individual Training, Basic Team Training, Advanced Individual Training, and Advanced Team Training, I think it becomes apparent you're not going to come close to learning all this stuff in one weekend. In fact, you could train continuously for 6 months and just barely be considered competent. From my time in the black boot Marine Corps, I would say 12 solid months of training would put you at a journeyman, entry-level as an 0321, or recon Marine. 18 months would be even better. What's this got to do with us? I happen to think a lot. More on that later.
If you have no background in this stuff whatsoever, and that would include about 90% of the population, trying to learn all this stuff for the first time in weekend classes, live fire, is like drinking through a fire hose. It may not be rocket science, but it's not just a walk in the park either (contrary to what some dumbshit stated on Arfcom). The fact that some guys can accomplish the basics in such a short period of time is simply amazing in my mind, and a testament to some instructor's abilities.
That being said, I don't really think it's the optimum way of learning this stuff, for a variety of reasons. First off, you barely get to learn and then do all the skills on such a steep learning curve. There is no time for 100's of repetitions to really ingrain things. Secondly, your team is barely functional, without solid leadership. In order to function, live fire, you must be supervised by instructors to insure your safety. Think of how long that would take if you were truly doing this on your own. And last, I don't think it's sustainable, unless you keep coming back for more courses, and spend thousands of dollars to stay current every year.
What I propose instead is local groups, organized on the "club" model, that meet and do dry fire/blank fire training together over a period of several months. When everything is at a certain level, then you seek out a venue for live fire training, as a validation exercise. I just think to really master the knowledge and skills, you need to study and practice this stuff over an extended period of time. And, I also happen to think that about 90% of this training can be done dry fire/ blank fire. So not to take away from live fire training, but there is much you can do on a local level. In fact, the vast majority of it can be done on a local level.
What do I mean by the "club" model. Well, before the information age, people with similar interest actually got together and talked face to face. No shit, they would meet once a month and talk about their interests, and even go out together on club outings. Thing like jumping, diving, mountain climbing. People actually did this stuff instead of just playing at it on video games. The best part was, the older members would mentor the younger ones. And they didn't charge thousands of dollars to do it. Everybody would pay dues to cover expenses, and get a group discount for club outings. So if you wanted to know how to learn a certain skill, you joined a club and they schooled you right up. Now of course, you could pay a commercial vendor for private or semi-private lessons, but it would also cost you much more money.
This is the situation we find ourselves in right now. People think they have no other alternative than to go to a commercial vendor for SUT, and pay substantial amounts of money for live fire training. The problem is, a lot of guys can't afford it. For a weekend class you are looking at 400 in tuition, at least 400 in ammo, 50-100 in gas money, 150 for a room, 100 for food, so at a bare minimum, you're looking at 1200 bucks. That does not include last-minute purchases of equipment/ upgrades and the like. Not to mention already having the necessary weapons and equipment load out for class, which can be an easy 1500 bucks, probably closer to 2,000. So all up, you need approx. 2,000 bucks in basic weapons and equipment for training, and then another 1200 bucks for a weekend class, or all up, at least 3,000 bucks to get a seat at the table.
Now as a validation exercise, as expensive as it is, it is certainly worth it, to train live fire with your team. But what will your sustainment program look like? How often do you need to do live fire again to stay at that level of training? Quarterly? Annually? And what's the best way to do pre-class training so you get the most bang for your buck?
As an alternative, I propose forming small local teams, or "clubs" if you will. Yes, there are serious obstacles to this approach, but it can be done. We are in the process of doing that as we speak. The amount of info available on the subject is simply astounding. In my day, only veterans had access to all this stuff. Now most any mook can look up all sorts of stuff. The first step is simply reaching out to locals, and finding a good mix of vets and youngsters willing to teach and learn. Our group is about half and half. Then research your subject. Find solid references to base on. Develop a training plan. Go out and do it.
The beauty of this arrangement is, you just need some private land to train on. With dry fire, or even blank fire, you don't need all the requirements for live fire training. This really simplifies things. You can concentrate on the fine details of patrolling without the added expense of live fire training. In my time in the Corps, I would hazard to guess that our dry fire/blank training was over 95% of the training schedule, with live fire on a quarterly basis, and annual re-quals. We patrolled for days on end in the jungles and woodlands, honing our craft. Live fire was an important piece of it, but a very small piece.
Once your team is up to speed, you could all go, or at least key leaders go to a live fire training course, and find out what it takes to transition your training to live fire. Then for sustainment, you could come back annually, if possible, or work out an arrangement with a local live fire trainer that might be able to accommodate your training requirements. Might even be better if he was included in your group.
I know this is kinda a radical proposal for some. Just wanted to throw it out there for comment. As we progress I will update on what and how we're doing. Might even put a manual up online for free download, to help other groups out, once we figure out what we're doing.
There's just gotta be a better way to get this knowledge out there. I think an affordable, local level organization is the way to go.
Back to the top, what does recon Marine training have to do with us? Well, everything. I happen to be of the opinion that we will be operating in small 4-6 man teams, without support, in injun country. How we conduct ourselves is more akin to the small recce patrol than the conventional light infantry unit. With this in mind, what a lot of black boot veterans did back in their day is highly valuable information that can be disseminated to the next generation. What some people discount as useless or dangerous is actually still very valid within the context of an armed citizen in a WROL sit. Silly arguments about rifle carry, or reloads aside, there are many good T,T,P's or "tricks of the trade" to be learned.
And finally, in the interest of full disclosure here is my back ground, again. I was an active duty Marine for 3 years, from 1977-80 and in the reserves for another 3 from 1980-83. Then I spent one year with the Army National Guard in 1984. I was a Platoon Leader for Infantry, Dragons (Anti-tank), 81mm Mortars, and STA (snipers) in the Corps, and a Company Commander for Scouts, 4.2" mortars, and TOW's in the ArNG. I made three deployments overseas to Korea, Okinawa, and the Philippines. I have not seen any actual combat, but I have over 6 years of experience training for it. So I don't have any high-speed credentials like some of these other guys, but I do have some experience in this stuff. I have studied the military art and science for 39 years. I don't pretend to have all the answers. But I try to have an open mind and study the best references available that apply to us. I am also developing training plans as we speak.
Be interested in knowing what you guys think.
If you have no background in this stuff whatsoever, and that would include about 90% of the population, trying to learn all this stuff for the first time in weekend classes, live fire, is like drinking through a fire hose. It may not be rocket science, but it's not just a walk in the park either (contrary to what some dumbshit stated on Arfcom). The fact that some guys can accomplish the basics in such a short period of time is simply amazing in my mind, and a testament to some instructor's abilities.
That being said, I don't really think it's the optimum way of learning this stuff, for a variety of reasons. First off, you barely get to learn and then do all the skills on such a steep learning curve. There is no time for 100's of repetitions to really ingrain things. Secondly, your team is barely functional, without solid leadership. In order to function, live fire, you must be supervised by instructors to insure your safety. Think of how long that would take if you were truly doing this on your own. And last, I don't think it's sustainable, unless you keep coming back for more courses, and spend thousands of dollars to stay current every year.
What I propose instead is local groups, organized on the "club" model, that meet and do dry fire/blank fire training together over a period of several months. When everything is at a certain level, then you seek out a venue for live fire training, as a validation exercise. I just think to really master the knowledge and skills, you need to study and practice this stuff over an extended period of time. And, I also happen to think that about 90% of this training can be done dry fire/ blank fire. So not to take away from live fire training, but there is much you can do on a local level. In fact, the vast majority of it can be done on a local level.
What do I mean by the "club" model. Well, before the information age, people with similar interest actually got together and talked face to face. No shit, they would meet once a month and talk about their interests, and even go out together on club outings. Thing like jumping, diving, mountain climbing. People actually did this stuff instead of just playing at it on video games. The best part was, the older members would mentor the younger ones. And they didn't charge thousands of dollars to do it. Everybody would pay dues to cover expenses, and get a group discount for club outings. So if you wanted to know how to learn a certain skill, you joined a club and they schooled you right up. Now of course, you could pay a commercial vendor for private or semi-private lessons, but it would also cost you much more money.
This is the situation we find ourselves in right now. People think they have no other alternative than to go to a commercial vendor for SUT, and pay substantial amounts of money for live fire training. The problem is, a lot of guys can't afford it. For a weekend class you are looking at 400 in tuition, at least 400 in ammo, 50-100 in gas money, 150 for a room, 100 for food, so at a bare minimum, you're looking at 1200 bucks. That does not include last-minute purchases of equipment/ upgrades and the like. Not to mention already having the necessary weapons and equipment load out for class, which can be an easy 1500 bucks, probably closer to 2,000. So all up, you need approx. 2,000 bucks in basic weapons and equipment for training, and then another 1200 bucks for a weekend class, or all up, at least 3,000 bucks to get a seat at the table.
Now as a validation exercise, as expensive as it is, it is certainly worth it, to train live fire with your team. But what will your sustainment program look like? How often do you need to do live fire again to stay at that level of training? Quarterly? Annually? And what's the best way to do pre-class training so you get the most bang for your buck?
As an alternative, I propose forming small local teams, or "clubs" if you will. Yes, there are serious obstacles to this approach, but it can be done. We are in the process of doing that as we speak. The amount of info available on the subject is simply astounding. In my day, only veterans had access to all this stuff. Now most any mook can look up all sorts of stuff. The first step is simply reaching out to locals, and finding a good mix of vets and youngsters willing to teach and learn. Our group is about half and half. Then research your subject. Find solid references to base on. Develop a training plan. Go out and do it.
The beauty of this arrangement is, you just need some private land to train on. With dry fire, or even blank fire, you don't need all the requirements for live fire training. This really simplifies things. You can concentrate on the fine details of patrolling without the added expense of live fire training. In my time in the Corps, I would hazard to guess that our dry fire/blank training was over 95% of the training schedule, with live fire on a quarterly basis, and annual re-quals. We patrolled for days on end in the jungles and woodlands, honing our craft. Live fire was an important piece of it, but a very small piece.
Once your team is up to speed, you could all go, or at least key leaders go to a live fire training course, and find out what it takes to transition your training to live fire. Then for sustainment, you could come back annually, if possible, or work out an arrangement with a local live fire trainer that might be able to accommodate your training requirements. Might even be better if he was included in your group.
I know this is kinda a radical proposal for some. Just wanted to throw it out there for comment. As we progress I will update on what and how we're doing. Might even put a manual up online for free download, to help other groups out, once we figure out what we're doing.
There's just gotta be a better way to get this knowledge out there. I think an affordable, local level organization is the way to go.
Back to the top, what does recon Marine training have to do with us? Well, everything. I happen to be of the opinion that we will be operating in small 4-6 man teams, without support, in injun country. How we conduct ourselves is more akin to the small recce patrol than the conventional light infantry unit. With this in mind, what a lot of black boot veterans did back in their day is highly valuable information that can be disseminated to the next generation. What some people discount as useless or dangerous is actually still very valid within the context of an armed citizen in a WROL sit. Silly arguments about rifle carry, or reloads aside, there are many good T,T,P's or "tricks of the trade" to be learned.
And finally, in the interest of full disclosure here is my back ground, again. I was an active duty Marine for 3 years, from 1977-80 and in the reserves for another 3 from 1980-83. Then I spent one year with the Army National Guard in 1984. I was a Platoon Leader for Infantry, Dragons (Anti-tank), 81mm Mortars, and STA (snipers) in the Corps, and a Company Commander for Scouts, 4.2" mortars, and TOW's in the ArNG. I made three deployments overseas to Korea, Okinawa, and the Philippines. I have not seen any actual combat, but I have over 6 years of experience training for it. So I don't have any high-speed credentials like some of these other guys, but I do have some experience in this stuff. I have studied the military art and science for 39 years. I don't pretend to have all the answers. But I try to have an open mind and study the best references available that apply to us. I am also developing training plans as we speak.
Be interested in knowing what you guys think.
?
You don't have to go into the bush to do it. If you're going in overnight I'd actually probably stick to the paths, till you know the area well enough. If you're just 15ft off the path and still no one sees you? You know you're a ninja