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Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 8:36:39 GMT -5
I'd like to throw this out there for discussion. It seems the vast majority of schools are teaching muzzle down movement these days. As a black boot military guy, I was taught muzzle up carry. It worked just fine for us back then, when the vast majority of our time was spent in jungle or woodland environments. But as you all know, the muzzle down technique has been taught for the past few years to the point where it is now considered gospel in some quarters.
Let's take a look. For movement in really heavy bush, I think the muzzle up technique is actually superior, because it's better balanced. You have your hands up, much like a boxer when moving. You can punch through heavy bush with your rifle at port arms and protect your face. If you trip and fall, it easier to catch yourself on your elbows, (or even your buttstock in the old days). When going down into position, either kneeling or prone, the barrel is already up, out of the way, and then swings down into position. If done correctly, mindful of your mates, it no more dangerous than muzzle down.
For movement in tight quarters, such as urban terrain, or CQB, muzzle down makes a lot of sense. It's easier to control groups of men, tightly packed together, as they sweep through narrow passageways, hatches, etc. In a training environment, especially with new personnel, its a better control measure to insure everybody is always pointing their barrel down into the deck, especially in a square range. It is perceived as being the safer technique, because the assumption is you are not going to sweep your mates as much as you might with muzzle up carry.
I happen to be of the opinion that these are two different arrows in your quiver for different occasions. If the terrain and situation suits muzzle up carry, then you should use it. If it fits muzzle down better, then use it. I think teaching students only one way is narrow-minded, and short-changes them in tactical technique.
Now I know I'm not the only black boot marine to have been taught this, yet there is amazing silence on this subject. When it is brought up in certain quarters, it is quickly dismissed as not being open to discussion. I think this shows either amazing arrogance of "my way or the highway", or deliberate ignorance of older techniques because they are deemed no longer valid.
What think ye?
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 23, 2015 9:16:33 GMT -5
Although, I've seen people sweep the leg of a teammate kneeling down with muzzle down on square ranges. Yeah, it's not a chest or head wound, but would still cause a bad wound that would take your mate, and maybe a medic, out of the fight.
But I think you're right, different arrows for the quiver.
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Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 9:31:58 GMT -5
Well and that's my point, in a way. You end up sweeping your mates just as often with muzzle down sometimes, as you do muzzle up. Watch the training vids on line and see if this isn't so. The key here is to make sure that rifle is on safe, regardless of where the muzzle is. This is another reason we switched back to the AR platform. Just the inherent safety of the thumb safety.
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Post by Hawkeye on Feb 23, 2015 9:37:24 GMT -5
Train on both, use the appropriate one for the given situation.
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Post by odgreen on Feb 23, 2015 10:14:07 GMT -5
IMHO there is a place for both muzzle up and muzzle down, the circumstances dictate. For me if I am doing tactical carry, then I tend to most times be muzzle down, but if I am hunting or in wooded/brushy areas then I tend to carry muzzle up of some sort.
A couple of years ago I attended an urban assaulters course, where I and one of my teammates got paired with some 5th Group Personnel who had just returned from the kitty litter box. When the training started, on every entry the 5th Group Guys were muzzle up, where we were muzzle down. They asked why we are muzzle down, as they have been taught muzzle up, and that is how they did evetytime (lots) on their last deployment when doing entries. Well once we actually got into the different structures & shoot houses with doorways that we generally see in structures around the USA, the 5th Group Guys found that muzzle up didn't work well as their muzzles were always hindered and striking the top of doorway, and quickly switched to muzzle down.
I personally find that the muzzle down with the butt stock by the shooting shoulder is quick to gets your muzzle & sights on target. I much prefer it for comfort of carry. The negative is that if you were to fall or go to a kneeling, you have to be careful not to put your muzzle into the dirt.
Muzzle up is nice for running, and as already mentioned in brush or wooded areas. I do find that the muzzle up carry takes just a tad bit longer to get your muzzle & sights on target. I find that it the weapon also can block your view.
From the safety aspect, I think that the muzzle down is the safest, as if you were to unintentionally have the weapon fire, a projectile would be low on yours or someone elses extremity, which means you will most like live, limping maybe, but alive.
If carrying muzzle up and an unintentional shot went off, the projectile goes up, and who knows where it may land, Mythbusters did a study on this and concluded that bullets wouldn't have enough energy to hurt someone, I disagree as I have personally observed otherwise. But if an unintentional shot went off and the projectile hit someone, most likely in the torso or higher due to the muzzle up carry, the odds of that type of wound is most likely crippling or fatal due to all the vitals from the pelvic area up.
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Post by johnlangdon on Feb 23, 2015 11:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by rmplstlskn on Feb 23, 2015 13:54:47 GMT -5
Seems the safety thoughts for NON-COMBAT ranges has seeped in to something akin to religious traditions... "Don't know why, we just do it this way, never thought to ask why...."
Most ranges do not want NG's flying into the air landing on top of people in the surrounding areas... Rather have them hit dirt (or the leg of the guy next to you)...
Most training is on ranges and people like how slings let their weapon dangle in front of them... Not many ranges (or training classes) actually PATROL in varied terrain.
I too like muzzle up as the angles feel more natural, but I don't do this in "formal" training as a Range Safety Officer would bite my head off, yank my membership, and tell me to pack up and leave...
Traditions die hard...
Rmpl
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Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 13:58:55 GMT -5
Well thanks for the comments gents. I get so tired of getting the high hat at other websites, cuz you dare to bring up something different for discussion. I really appreciate the open-mindedness around here.
You know, all up, I can see where muzzle down might be the best setting. However, that is not to say there are not times and places for muzzle up. Why that's so fucking hard for some people to see is beyond me.
Again thanks for making this place somewhere we can actually discuss these things without ego, or agenda, or heaven forbid, money on the line.
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winter
Junior Member
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Post by winter on Feb 23, 2015 14:55:35 GMT -5
Six years in black boot Army Infantry and the issue was never addressed. We just tried to not sweep our teammates.
Safety on, finger outside of trigger guard, and everybody is safe.
What is funny is that our web gear was always set up so that, when doing road matches, there was a shelf made from the mag pouches to rest the rifle on. Horizontal carry? LOL
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Feb 23, 2015 15:12:16 GMT -5
Seems the safety thoughts for NON-COMBAT ranges has seeped in to something akin to religious traditions... "Don't know why, we just do it this way, never thought to ask why...." Most ranges do not want NG's flying into the air landing on top of people in the surrounding areas... Rather have them hit dirt (or the leg of the guy next to you)... Most training is on ranges and people like how slings let their weapon dangle in front of them... Not many ranges (or training classes) actually PATROL in varied terrain. I too like muzzle up as the angles feel more natural, but I don't do this in "formal" training as a Range Safety Officer would bite my head off, yank my membership, and tell me to pack up and leave... Traditions die hard... Rmpl Yeah, my range is the same. Point muzzle up and go home. Do it enough and they cancel your membership. Reason they give is that they can be fined big time by the EPA if a round goes over the bearm. Our club even has several wells dug around the property to monitor for issues. Sorry to get off topic, but this may be reason some guys just do the muzzle up stuff right off the bat. |
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Post by Diz on Feb 23, 2015 16:25:25 GMT -5
Yeah I'm with Winter on that one. That's exactly what we did as well. We always thought of it as Brit Carry, but I guess it ain't any more. I grew up looking at pics of Rhodie's, Aussies, Kiwis, and yes Brits with their FN's cradled horizontally in their arms on ruck march, and even carried pretty much horizontally on patrol. The earliest pics I remember of SBS and SAS raiders on the Falkland Islands showed them carrying their "Armalites" this way, and the Royal Marines their FN's.
Now all of a sudden it's muzzle down johnny.
Yeah I realize a lot of this is carried forward from square range training. If you are teaching a bunch of guys fire and maneuver for the first time, it stands to reason you might have some issues with everyone being used to muzzle down. I remember one time I was trying to teach some guys and I asked if anyone had a preference. Nobody spoke up, so I said, OK let's try muzzle up, here's how to do it. Well, when we did the drill, the guys all did muzzle down just out of habit. So I said, ok, muzzle down it is. So yeah I get it, if your guys have had any current training at all, that's what they're gonna want to do.
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 23, 2015 16:52:49 GMT -5
Assuming there aren't arbitrary range rules in place;
WINTER HAS IT DOWN. Finger is only on the trigger when the weapon is AIMED =AND= you've selected someone you would like to hit with it. Spot on that man.
Now, that being said, you may be in something remotely linear of an environment, and it needs to point not at the back of your buddy. Where does the muzzle point now? Up works. Down works. Half Left works. Half right works. Until there is someone above you (ground floor urban assault) or below you (second floor on a multi-story assault) or to the left of you, or to the right of you (Parallel corridors/lanes through an environment...)
As to the horizontal thing - If you're on a TAB, you SHOULD be in clear ground (defined line EF/FF line to your FRONT. You will be marching across 'clear' ground, with loaded but not made ready weapons. In this state, whilst no one is ever going to advocate carrying it pointed at anyone, horizontal carry is acceptable.
ALTERNATIVELY, it's carried this way, often seen accompanied by soft hats/berets, when doing hearts and minds stuff, mixing with locals. Relaxed soldiers, for the most part = relaxed locals who don't feel the need to throw petrol bombs at you. (I will refer you back AGAIN to Northern Ireland, because I'm boring like that.)
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Post by panzer0170 on Feb 23, 2015 16:54:54 GMT -5
Six years in black boot Army Infantry and the issue was never addressed. We just tried to not sweep our teammates. Safety on, finger outside of trigger guard, and everybody is safe. What is funny is that our web gear was always set up so that, when doing road matches, there was a shelf made from the mag pouches to rest the rifle on. Also great for stagging on, when it gets boring holding that bloody thing but you can't actually just put it down. Horizontal carry? LOL |
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winter
Junior Member
Posts: 479
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Post by winter on Feb 23, 2015 17:53:54 GMT -5
I just think, for our purposes, the rifle should be carried in such a way that being able to shoot it quickly is more important than accidentally pointing it at someone while in a safe carry mode (safety on, finger out of trigger guard).
Building a habit of never having your finger on the trigger unless shooting would avoid any errant shots.
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Post by Erick on Feb 23, 2015 19:20:19 GMT -5
Diz,
I think you put your finger on something there.
I also feel the muzzle up carry is more ergonomic less tiring and keeps your head up better.
But the prevalence of CQB/Urban in recent decades has made muzzle down the instruction standard nearly all places.
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