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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 11, 2015 5:39:11 GMT -5
Bookmark the JTT page then I've got all sorts of stuff (some of it that's very much 'shiny, want!'; some of it that's actually a solid purchase idea for real life) bookmarked from blogs all over the world, mostly because a lot of the stuff I have is a standard product that someone has modded somewhich way, or that they use differently to advertised, and THAT is the information I need to retain.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jan 11, 2015 19:42:09 GMT -5
Bookmark the JTT page then I've got all sorts of stuff (some of it that's very much 'shiny, want!'; some of it that's actually a solid purchase idea for real life) bookmarked from blogs all over the world, mostly because a lot of the stuff I have is a standard product that someone has modded somewhich way, or that they use differently to advertised, and THAT is the information I need to retain. I've got so much bookmarked now. I see things like this, bookmark the page, but forget about going back and check it. Sucks getting older...like Hawkeye says, "PS, you must have CRS syndrome" (Can't remember shit)
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 11, 2015 19:48:05 GMT -5
Bookmark the JTT page then I've got all sorts of stuff (some of it that's very much 'shiny, want!'; some of it that's actually a solid purchase idea for real life) bookmarked from blogs all over the world, mostly because a lot of the stuff I have is a standard product that someone has modded somewhich way, or that they use differently to advertised, and THAT is the information I need to retain. I've got so much bookmarked now. I see things like this, bookmark the page, but forget about going back and check it. Sucks getting older...like Hawkeye says, "PS, you must have CRS syndrome" (Can't remember shit) I literally go through my bookmarks once every few months and prune/organise. Get rid of what I think is 'shiny' and categorise what is practical. To the point I have a bookmark folder which splits down as far as medical>BOK>Belt and medical>BOK>LowVis etc
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Post by Diz on Jan 12, 2015 17:06:07 GMT -5
Yeah I'm really interested in RDS-mounted pistols. For a primary weapons system, this would make a lot of sense. Add a can...
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 12, 2015 18:26:12 GMT -5
Diz, I'd be interested to see how much power you could pack and still remain 90% under the radar even in a WROL situation. It seems that using appendix carry you might get away with a lot more than any other carry method, though I'm not sure how comfortable it'd be. You could chuck the can on a belt with mags and other gear, with a low vis pistol vest (I think if you're going to limit yourself to a pistol and accept you're fucked against rifles, then rifle plates are.... something you could potentially ignore.) There is potential for quite a reasonable amount of offensive firepower, albeit short range, as well as a decent level of stealth and protection. Definitely something I'd be interested in.
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Post by omnivorous on Jan 12, 2015 18:53:05 GMT -5
Man, I really dig that 6 Second mount, but your holster options are going to be limited to custom. I agree with panzer0170, and anyone else who's mentioned it, in that a can should be one an "offensive" pistol rig. Capacity can be parodied, with certain makes and models of pistol, but it won't have the range and accuracy of a rifle. Going in a different direction, and harnessing stealth, or at least a signature reducing capability, would seem to be adequate compensation, if properly utilized. Using asymmetrical tactics will help, like disengaging and re-holstering, in order to blend back in, and then re-engaging the threat, may not be a bad approach.
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Post by Diz on Jan 13, 2015 9:01:58 GMT -5
Very true the can moves into the realm of planned shots that you want to keep quiet, so it would definitely make a fine primary weapon for offensive ops. It would also seem to be a good idea in confined or enclosed spaces, like urban structures, caves, sewer systems, etc. Not only noise reduction but also muzzle flash. With NV gear I think that would almost be more important. A handgun with an IR laser would be awesome. I'm even re-considering visual laser. There are advantages to being able to shoot without your eye and sights lined up.
As far as carry modes, I am still working on the concept of a dedicated pistol chest rig. To me this is just a logical extension of the appendix carry position. You have your weapon mounted in front, center-lined, so it's just a tad higher and more centered. I like this concept because you have a better position for drawing the weapon at CQB distances, and you have more room for additional mags. Not to mention all that other stuff we crowd onto our belts. It's a very specialized application, but I can definitely see a time and place for it. Having all your kit vest-mounted instead of running essentially what amounts to a cop's duty belt makes sense to me.
As to concealment, this is one of the primary attributes of the handgun. You don't want to throw that away unless you have very good reasons. But looking at the handgun as a primary weapons system in certain situations, with a RDS, illum, and laser you have an awesome short-barreled package. So it depends on whether concealment or working in close quarters is the over-riding consideration.
Anyways, this is good discussion. I think it's high time we explore what weapons are gonna work in urban and suburban areas.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 13, 2015 11:43:07 GMT -5
Diz Definitely on board with that as an idea. I've a peice of gear from anothe manufacturer that's come about from (originally) a way to CCW whilst hiking. Solid design but mine is quite a heavy, chunky setup; As mine is just for Nav/First aid/Food for now, it's less of an issue. I'd definitely consider one of their thinner models, or gear like it, for a pistol. My only issue for AC/UW is their use of zips, but for ROL conditions it's a cracking, multi use peice of gear. Look forward to something from UW gear in the future that is similar
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Post by Diz on Jan 14, 2015 11:44:19 GMT -5
Yeah there are two concepts I'm exploring here. Tell me what you think. First off would be a hybrid kydex/nylon holster, mounted on the rig itself, either center-line or off-set to user taste. Added to this would be reloads. Lots of reloads! I'm thinking in terms of what kind of load out you'd want for a primary weapon, in a WROL sit, not necessarily "normal" EDC. So I want at least 6 mags. If the rig is off-set, the mags could be arrayed off-side. So it's not far off from appendix carry and where your mags are now. Just sorta center-lines things a bit. The holster would consist of a nylon outer shell, with an inner kydex shell to fit your particular pistol. We would probably make some for Glocks, but any good IWB holster, that can be cleared of loops will work. It will be velcroed in. The mags will be either G-17, or "happy mags", with the G-17 pouch fitting most other double-stack mags. Possibly also small pouches for a bleeder kit, and/or a small radio. It would be low-profile enough to fit under any light jacket, wind shirt, etc. Possibly even under a button-up shirt in hotter climes.
The second concept would be closer to a rifle chest rig, in that you would combine an appendix carry holster on the belt line, with a chest rig for mags on the centerline. This would give you beau-coups room for additional ammo, as you said, to get to some parity with a rifle load out. Here I would be looking at even more, say in the 6-8 mag range. Along with bleeder kit and radio pouches if desired.
Both concepts would begin to give you some combat capability with the handgun. Both defensive, and offensive as required. Some might argue that having that much ammo might encourage you to stay and fight when you should be hauling ass, but like the man said, nobody ever complained of having too much ammo in a firefight. I believe these rigs are in the seam between what you'd normally use for "street" crime, and what a soldier might use on the battlefield. And that, in essence, is what we may be facing.
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Post by Diz on Jan 14, 2015 11:49:19 GMT -5
And then there's the question of body armor. Ideally, a low-profile plate carrier, and soft armor combination, to defeat the most common threats, up to 5.56 NATO and 7.62 x 39 rifle fire. This would make an ideal platform for either rig I have in mind, although you would have to wear more billowy clothing to conceal it.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jan 14, 2015 13:54:52 GMT -5
Yeah there are two concepts I'm exploring here. Tell me what you think. First off would be a hybrid kydex/nylon holster, mounted on the rig itself, either center-line or off-set to user taste. Added to this would be reloads. Lots of reloads! I'm thinking in terms of what kind of load out you'd want for a primary weapon, in a WROL sit, not necessarily "normal" EDC. So I want at least 6 mags. If the rig is off-set, the mags could be arrayed off-side. So it's not far off from appendix carry and where your mags are now. Just sorta center-lines things a bit. The holster would consist of a nylon outer shell, with an inner kydex shell to fit your particular pistol. We would probably make some for Glocks, but any good IWB holster, that can be cleared of loops will work. It will be velcroed in. The mags will be either G-17, or "happy mags", with the G-17 pouch fitting most other double-stack mags. Possibly also small pouches for a bleeder kit, and/or a small radio. It would be low-profile enough to fit under any light jacket, wind shirt, etc. Possibly even under a button-up shirt in hotter climes. The second concept would be closer to a rifle chest rig, in that you would combine an appendix carry holster on the belt line, with a chest rig for mags on the centerline. This would give you beau-coups room for additional ammo, as you said, to get to some parity with a rifle load out. Here I would be looking at even more, say in the 6-8 mag range. Along with bleeder kit and radio pouches if desired. Both concepts would begin to give you some combat capability with the handgun. Both defensive, and offensive as required. Some might argue that having that much ammo might encourage you to stay and fight when you should be hauling ass, but like the man said, nobody ever complained of having too much ammo in a firefight. I believe these rigs are in the seam between what you'd normally use for "street" crime, and what a soldier might use on the battlefield. And that, in essence, is what we may be facing. I like the second concept. My reasoning is I am use to carrying my CCW now, so adding a chest rig (with or without BA) with space for spare mags...happy mags....would be a plus for me. This would allow me to still retain my current muscle memory for retrieving my pistol. With a smaller BOK (I have ideas for you here) and radio pouch and pouch for a can, it would possibly allow for a smaller platform to keep it low pro. This would be for those SHTF times that a rifle would be too obvious, but allow one to return substantial rounds down range to get out of trouble. Sure a rifle would be better, but may not be a practical choice for the operating environment.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 14, 2015 15:01:06 GMT -5
As far as the BOK, I think a slip behind the main rig with a pull handle either side (I've seen these set up in the lumbar region before) would work to maintain low pro, as well as keeping the appendix carry. I think if you're going for pure chest carry you need to have a belt to warrant it. Either a large pack, or a battlebelt. Chances are if I'm bothering with those, I've a rifle and. i'm going to use it. Thin, magazine & BOK only chest rig. Combined with however you carry (hip, appendix or otherwise) Upgrades you from EDC CCW to fairly powerful short range capability. Throw on a loose fitting jacket of some kind (say, a smock? ) and you're golden. Warm weather you might manage the same with a thin, loose shirt. Low pro I don't reckon you want your radio necessarily mounted. Messenger bag with goodies in it would be better (one that LOOKS like a messenger bag, mind you. Not a fucking maxpedition style one...) Perhaps use the bag to carry 'extra' med gear, your radio, extra mags, perhaps food and 'sustainment' gear that doesn't scream paramilitary. If you look towards hammock type stuff and indoor (assuming urban) sleeping you can lose a LOT of weight/bulk in the first place.
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Post by omnivorous on Jan 14, 2015 19:08:21 GMT -5
On panzer's point of using an edc bag in conjunction with the rig, I think this concept rig should be in-between the stuff carried on one's person, and what's carried in the bag. Something that can be worn in environment where contact may just be likely, or something that can be donned quickly if the opportunity provides. I think the idea of it supplementing a belt system is the way to go.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jan 14, 2015 19:17:47 GMT -5
What about a bandoleer that is set up for pistol mags, that could convert to a chest rig by removing the shoulder strap and adding a harness like one on the current minuteman? The current bandoleer already has the waist strap. You could put a simple BOK on the shoulder harness or strap depending on carry method.
I'm not a gear maker, but just throwing it out there.
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Post by omnivorous on Jan 14, 2015 20:53:31 GMT -5
What about a bandoleer that is set up for pistol mags, that could convert to a chest rig by removing the shoulder strap and adding a harness like one on the current minuteman? The current bandoleer already has the waist strap. You could put a simple BOK on the shoulder harness or strap depending on carry method. I'm not a gear maker, but just throwing it out there. That's not a bad idea, to use an existing rig as the base. If you use the bandoleer as a base though, think of it in terms of molle columns. The UW Gear AR bandoleer accommodates 3 magazines, which usually take up 6 columns of molle loops, 2 per mag. If we keep the same dimensions, and lets just use Glock fun sticks for the mags, which will take-up a column each, then this pistol rig would accommodate 6 magazines. That's a lot of ammo, but now there is no more room for any other equipment on the rig. A couple columns of molle could be put on either side (the 2 columns being on the same side, not one column per side) for placement of a small FAK, with 4 pouches left on the rig, which will accommodate 4 mags to be carried.
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