|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Apr 25, 2014 13:45:00 GMT -5
Just saw this over at Selco's forum and thought I'd bring it here for discussion. Shot placement is everything. Click |
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Apr 26, 2014 5:58:07 GMT -5
An interesting post. I'd be willing to say it's actually a combination of everything, and what combination you choose will very much depend on YOU.
If shot placement is equal, the round that's been proven to do damage is going to be more effective.
Problem there is some people can't effectively handle .5" revolvers. Does this mean they should get a .22 and spend their life training the perfect shot? No.
Most pistol shooting I've done is 9mm, I've fired quite a bit of .22 and some .380 - I've fired about 3-4 mags of .45, and right now if I carried a .45 I'd likely do more damage to myself than anyone else, because I'm not used to it's recoil. (Having said that I've fired a little subcompact thing in 9mm and that kicked more than the .45, so...
For ME? I'd go 9mm. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest something like .22 to someone if that's all they could handle, especially if it means they have SOMETHING.
I also think beyond .45 you start to see the law of diminishing returns; Cost, recoil, size, lack of carried ammunition (often only 6 rounds because it's a revolver, which again for someone who doesn't train every day is slow to reload...) all end up being more than the extra X Joules worth of energy.
Shot placement IS important, but I honestly think that outside competition scenarios and some LE scenarios you should just be focusing on Centre of Mass. Fancy shots for the head or anything else is... flashy showy stuff outside hostage scenarios.
Man has gun close enough that you're in pistol range, but all you can see is his head? means he can't shoot you, and you should be either A) closing so shooting him is easier B) running the f*ck away, or C) Getting in some cover, because when he's done reloading he's coming back out with firepower. Now if you choose C, and there is still TIME to try a nice accurate shot for the head, go ahead. But the most important thing is COVER. If you can't be shot, because you're behind something that will stop incoming... you will live.
Living is important above all.
If you can't be shot THEY will have to move, and then it's on you to make the easier shot, when they're out in the open. Shooting is 1/10th maximum of getting out of a gunfight alive, IMO. YMMV and would be interested to see other opinions.
|
|
|
|
Post by UnforseenWeather on Apr 26, 2014 17:33:31 GMT -5
I agree. I keep coming back to this question mainly to assuage my concerns of the 5.56mm at range - 5 or 600 yards.
The idea isn't necessarily stopping power/force/juju, it's putting accurate rounds on target.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Apr 29, 2014 16:37:46 GMT -5
Selcos points on shot placement are well taken but Panzer made a point as well IMO. Use what you know how to use. And the only way to ensure that is to train with what you own. Also engagement envelope is not included in the shot placement meme. Some Ammo/Handgun combos will still work at much grater range than others. For example who wants to go up w/ a Glock 19 against a guy w/ a 357 Mag revolver with even a moderate 4 inch barrel, if they meet in an open area, that is they can see each other past 20m? Is the ability to shoot further very Relevant to our current urban self defense meme? not really.. but many here are thinking of SHTF right? And if you live in the west you may find yourself not at 5 yards but at 15 yards or more. At 15 yds a decent shooter with say a GP100 or S&W 586 can usually hit with 1st round, but with a G19 (or similar form any brand) the same shooter might not hit until the 3rd, 4th or even more rounds r Except in this situation there wont be a chance to send more rounds down for the G19 guy (BTW I love G19s just for the record). Is it a bit of an unusual example? Yes, but better pointability of your handgun also influences shot placement. What is the point of all this? The point is your operational environment and PoU determines the best platform/caliber combination if you analyze it for your own situation. Beginner shooters often latch on celebrity shooters on youtube and ape their choices w/o checking if those guys' preferences really apply to their own intended use. Just my 2 cents..  |
|
|
|
Post by USMC0331 on Apr 29, 2014 22:22:41 GMT -5
Whatever you have, use it! I was embarrassed on the last drill I did because I have not shot my Glock 17 much at all this year and have been focusing on the carbine.
The drill was 4 carbine, transition to 2 pistol at an IDPA target at 35 yards. Making A-zone hits on demand cold from 35 yards is pretty good shooting and I've been at that level in the past but that day after not practicing pistol for a few months... I missed the WHOLE target! A bad grip and not taking the time to get a good SP for that distance will do it evrey time.
Shooting (especially handguns at range) is a perishable skill, don't let it slip!
There is a reason you should go slow on the draw during a rifle to pistol transition and it's because you can't shoot a pistol and nearly fast as that carbine you just dropped and need to adjust (shift gears) to get first round hits at ranges outside of 15 yards.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Apr 30, 2014 0:05:46 GMT -5
I have not shot my handguns for a a couple weeks.
But I seem to have plateaued and even when I let it got for a full months I seem to shoot the same.
2 weeks ago I went to town and shot 100 rds of 38 spc and 100 rds of 357 Mag.
It was an expensive day but I was pleased with the result.
i mostly train for first round hits w/ handgun for civilian environment.
Not sure handguns have a role in a tactical environment.
I know they are pretty popular now but IMO that is due to how US military has been operating mostly as a heavily armed police force with resultant affects on TTPs and kit.
|
|
|
|
Post by USMC0331 on Apr 30, 2014 0:14:03 GMT -5
..Not sure handguns have a role in a tactical environment... It's to get you to your long gun. |
|
|
|
Post by panzer0170 on Apr 30, 2014 4:04:41 GMT -5
..Not sure handguns have a role in a tactical environment... It's to get you to your long gun. Or for when you pull the trigger 10yds from someone and nothing happens. Fault find? Or just pull a new weapon? |
|
|
|
Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Apr 30, 2014 14:51:17 GMT -5
I've had this discussion with the group of guys I train with. The main reason I carry a sidearm is being the medic, I most likely will unsling my rifle and lay it next to me (or behind my knees if I'm kneeling) or sling it over my back to get it out of my way while I'm treating someone. At that point, if I get a BG that pops up on me, I may not have time to get my rifle, and my sidearm will be with me no matter where I am. I may not always have security while I'm treating someone.
Now, some of the other guys feel that in certain situations just having a rifle makes sense for them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Erick on Apr 30, 2014 17:18:04 GMT -5
This is an interesting subject and its one of nuances IMO. Historically Infantrymen light or otherwise have not carried handguns. But until the advent of the wonder nines handguns were heavier and less effective than they are now. So perhaps this is the time were the positive ( and extra boomstick limited though as it may be) outweighs the negative of a handgun and that is it takes up the bulk/weight of 3 30rd magazines. Where is the point that the pendulum should swing? For SWAT teams thats obvious, they are being followed around by a van full of water and ammo so its they can afford that displacement. Butr we ar enot SWAT team members. For troops in the GWOT the answer is easy too as the new meme is mechnized travel and at times almost a police type mission. What about for armed civilians? well 2 different paradigms may operate here. - The armed prepper walking down the street in SHTF in easy terrain (or protecting his home) - The Guerrilla.. Guerrillas are by force minimalists and must discard everything that is not absolutely needed 100% of the time to perform their mission. So discarding handguns ( and many other nice to have things) is what will happen no doubt about it . F.. |
|
bigen
New Member
Posts: 51 
|
Post by bigen on Jan 9, 2015 6:09:22 GMT -5
it matters very little, unless you are talking about the brain hit. there's nothing immediately incapacitating about a heart hit, especially not with standard pistol loads. Chest hits can't be relied upon to stop a man faster than 4-5 seconds. gut hits often take much longer. if you are talking about softpoint 223 loads, at ranges under 100 yds, yes, then a chest hit suffices, over 95% of the time. Such performance can be had in a belt pistol, too, with special bullets and loads (ie, 70 grs at 2300 fps, 4" barrel.
|
|
bigen
New Member
Posts: 51
|
Post by bigen on Jan 9, 2015 6:11:24 GMT -5
my pistol weighs less than a lb. If your pistol and ammo total 3 lbs, I suggest that you look around for something much smaller and lighter. Mine offers 45 grs at 2200 fps, 500 ft lbs, like a 4" 357, but mine is 6" x 4.5" and offers a .22 lr conversion unit as well.
|
|
bigen
New Member
Posts: 51
|
Post by bigen on Jan 9, 2015 6:12:19 GMT -5
the heart is the same 4" circle as a target as is the brain. if you can reliably hit the one, why not just aim at the other and be done with the speculation and the risk of a non-stop, hmm?
|
|
|
|
Post by andrewe on Jan 10, 2015 5:07:56 GMT -5
the heart is the same 4" circle as a target as is the brain. if you can reliably hit the one, why not just aim at the other and be done with the speculation and the risk of a non-stop, hmm? Because heads move around a lot more than torsos. There's a reason that basically every pistol-issuing organization in the world teaches center of torso/center of mass shooting. It's way easier to hit someone in the chest. Also, there are a lot of useful secondary targets in the upper chest, not so much in the head. A slight miss with a headshot is often non-vital, and might not hit anything at all. A slight miss with an attempted heart shot has a very good chance of perforating a lung, liver, vena cava, aorta, spinal column...you get the point. Service-caliber JHP will make a mess of any vital organ, with decent placement and quality ammunition selection, in that order. |
|
|
|
Post by hudson5969 on Jan 10, 2015 14:38:18 GMT -5
Primary reason I carry a sidearm is for if/when the long gun goes down in close quarters. It's simply faster to draw a handgun and fire than it is to reload, much less troubleshoot.
|
|
