Magazine Dump Pouch?

[Willieboy]

Do you guys use a drop pouch for spent magazines? I have not used one but am considering adding one to my kit. What do you use?

[UnforseenWeather]

I have a couple Maxpedition rolly poly dump pouches. Good stuff, and it rolls up to stow if you don't need it.

[matt]

I have used about 10 million different types of dump pouches and come to some conclusions. Some day I will do a post on JTT about them. If I had to boil it down to 2 things, I would say: Always buy a dump pouch that is attached to your gear at the top and swings somewhat freely. Anything else is a recipe for leaving gear strewn behind you as you move.

The Rolly Polys work if you cinch the opening tight. I have 5 or 6 of them because they are a good value.

I also like the SSE pouches from Blue Force Gear and the CSM Gear style pouches.

[norinco]

Let me say first that I think that retaining spent magazine is a good thing.

That said, I have either not found a good way to retain them or need to spend more time training to retain them.

Probably the latter.

I've been using a Maxpedition dump pouch in two recent classes. And despite knowing it was there at the end of quite a few drills I was having to go and pickup spent mags left on the ground behind me.

This has happened at matches as well.

So not only do you need to find one that works for you just knowing that it is there is not enough.

[4track]

The Maxpedition pouches...aside from being made overseas...are too shallow for my needs. Most mags will jump right out when the user is really moving. This is especially true with Kalashnikov mags.

I have used a few brands over the years, but the CSM Gear has been the best, in my opinion.

It has lots of depth, enabling it to swallow up many AK mags, and the inner lining of the pouch helps to keep them in there.

Also, the CSM pouch has good adjustment with the cinch cord. It can also be rolled up, but I typically leave mine deployed.

Plus, they are really easy to get, especially on the second hand (i.e. Ebay) market, due to CSM's contract to manufacture these for USMC.

A good piece of kit, for certain.

[Willieboy]

I have read the CSM pouch is very good buy I've never seen one in person. It just looks like a lunch bag and I don't see how it could retain spent magazines when on the run. I kind of like the looks of those from Original S.O.E and Emdom. Both of these feature restricted openings that would not prevent insertion but might, theoretically prevent a magazine from falling out.

[4track]

May 17, 2012 20:16:06 GMT -5 Willieboy said:

I have read the CSM pouch is very good buy I've never seen one in person. It just looks like a lunch bag and I don't see how it could retain spent magazines when on the run. I kind of like the looks of those from Original S.O.E and Emdom. Both of these feature restricted openings that would not prevent insertion but might, theoretically prevent a magazine from falling out.

May 17, 2012 17:05:14 GMT -5 norinco said:

...I've been using a Maxpedition dump pouch in two recent classes. And despite knowing it was there at the end of quite a few drills I was having to go and pickup spent mags left on the ground behind me.
...

Here is a photo compare/contrast of the CSM Gear Dump Pouch and the Maxpedition Rolly Polly Dump Pouch.

I use the CSM Gear pouch on my bat belt, just slightly right of center of my spine.



I find this to be the best position for me, as it allow me to access the pouch with either hand, and it utilizes an otherwise unused space on my belt. Since I prefer to have the pouch deployed and ready to receive items at all times, I do not bother to roll the pouch up.

The CSM Gear pouch has approximately 50% more storage volume than the Maxpediton pouch.



Also, the CSM Gear pouch is a bit taller than the Maxpedtion pouch, which is of importance to users of AK magazines.



The CSM Gear pouch features a double layer construction, with Cordura nylon on the exterior, and a softer nylon on the interior.



Pulling the soft inner lining inside-out of the the pouch reveals the drainage grommets. It also shows that the inner layers is larger than the exterior layer of the pouch.



This double layer is what helps the CSM Gear retain its contents. The inner layer buffers the contents, and acts to arrest the inertia that the contents have when the users is moving.

To aid in magazine retention, the CSM Gear pouch also employes a cinching mechanism, consisting of an elastic cord and a cord lock, which is hard mounted to the pouch's body. The opening to the inner lining of the pouch can be narrowed, simply by pulling the cord with one hand.



Even with the opening restricted, inserting magazines is still easy to accomplish, because the outer nylon layer is still wide open, thanks to and HDPE stiffener, which is sewn into the mouth of the outer layer. This creates a funnel, which guides the magazines into the restricted opening.



In contrast, the Maxpedition pouch is constructed with a single layer of stiff, thick nylon fabric, and it has drainage grommets in the bottom. The stiffness of the Maxpedtion pouch's fabric helps it too stay open.



The Maxpediton pouch features a dual cinching mechanism, consisting of two sets of elastic cord and cord locks, which are hard mounted onto opposite ends of the belt loop.



Two hand movements, in opposite directions, are required to cinch down the opening of the pouch, and once done, inserting magazines is much more difficult to accomplish. The interior storage space of the cinched pouch is somewhat diminished, as well, especially when stowing AK magazines.



As an alternative to the cinch cords, the Maxpediton pouch opening can also be semi-secured with the velcro flap, but doing so will require an additional manipulation before magazines can be inserted.

To demonstrate the effectiveness of the CSM Gear pouch's retention ability, I dropped the following items into the open pouch: 01 empty US Palm AK 30 magazine, 01 empty XD45 magazine, 01 loaded 07 round Esstac Shotgun Card, 01 Chem Light.



Then without cinching, or otherwise restricting the pouch's opening, I ran for one mile through a rugged woodland trail, including jumping across a creekat two locations, with hard landings on the opposite banks.

None of the contents of the pouch spilled out.

I repeated the same activity with the Maxpedition pouch, however, I stopped after only running twenty yards, where I felt the AK magazine fall out. I then noticed that the Chem Light had fallen out ten yards prior.

For my use, I find that the CSM Gear pouch is far superior to the Maxpedition Rolly Polly (or any other brands, for that matter) in terms of construction, function and quality.

The CSM Gear pouch is also manufactured in the United States of America, and it only costs slightly more than the imported brands (i.e. Emdom, Maxpediton, etc.).

[UnforseenWeather]

There's a larger size Rolly Poly pouch. I have one. Might be a closer comparison to the larger CSM pouch.

[Dedicatedpro]

Great topic and very relevant posts ... 4track, as always, great response with supporting photos! This is a subject that I have put quite a bit of thought into and still haven't added one to my kit. Much of my reasoning is not only because I've always had access to a seemingly unlimited supply of magazines from my employers, which is why I haven't seen many LEOs with them and I've yet to see any Military folks that carry them in the field. I've seen a few of my fellow contractors with them, but they are few and far between. I've mainly seen them in training classes and have seen almost as many empty mags hit the ground than wind up in the bag or end up on the ground after they've been in the bag already.

From a prepared citizen stand point I am firmly on board with mag retention and even in my capacity as a contractor I see the need; but the training on the proper technique that is necessary to ensure that mags end up in the bag as opposed to the ground is seemingly more of a fine motor skill considering it must be done blind (as most dump pouches are behind the shooter) and in an extremely stressful situation. All of this while under fire, seeking cover (hopefully) while transitioning from one awkward position to another, oh and returning accurate fire to the bad guy(s) that are shooting at you. I will caviot that by once again emphasizing that I don't use on and haven't used one and that my decision is based on seeing and talking to others about the topic so if I sound biased or prejudiced, that is not the case. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I am merely offering some observations. I'll get back to mag retention in a second ...

My next issue is placement. More than likely it is going to be situated rear of the 180 degree plane between anterior and poterior so if you get into a dynamic firefight situation and you begin to find yourself in previously mentioned awkward positions, it is likely tht the pouch when empty could bunch up and cause a dangerous pressure strike to your lower back area or if it contains empty magazines, it can cause an even worse type of contact with the lower back that can immobilize you and prematurely end your ability to continue to fight and survive said firefight.

Back to mag retention ... this topic was mostly put to bed for me by the advent of a couple of guys that started a small (and rapidly growing) gear company that developed a unique combat support rig that is geared toward the prepared citizen. Ahem ... do I really need to spell it out? That's right folks ... Diz and Hawkeye's UW Gear MM MKII chest rig was my answer! But wait a minute you say, it only holds two mags and you carry at least 4 (with the newer rigs [1 in the gun and 3 in the rig]) ... what do you do with the rest. From the prepared citizen perspective and even from a military / LEO / contractor perspective if you are in an extend firefight and are still alive to be firing your 3rd, 4th or even 5th magazine, your tactics suck because that means that you are pinned down, and without immediate resupply or reinforcements on the way, the ability to retain your empty or partially empty magazines is most likely not going to make the difference in surviving the encounter and will be the least of your worries. I have practiced using the inner pouch behind the magazine pouches on the MM chest rig and can easily place two spent mags in there in conjuction with my mag changes without having to look at it, while focusing on threats and be able to manipulate my weapon as everything is situated in close proximity of my reach. I take a little bit more time and focus on my third reload as in my mind I am securely behind cover by then or running my happy ass off and not so much focused on returning fire as opposed to finding cover / getting the hell out of the contact area and can focus on where to put my empty mag such as between the rig and my chest (behind the other two that are secure in the "map pouch"), in one of my pockets, or tucked in my waist bandas it won't interfere with my focus of engaging the threat. If I lose it and get to mag # 4 or 5, refer back to the previous statement regarding bad tactics or it's just not my lucky day being outgunned and in a bad spot. At that point, I'll be looking for a battlefield pickup, transitioning to pistol, fixing bayonet and even possibly going the H2H route if they have run out of ammo too. At that point, if I prevail, I'll quickly retrieve whatever equipment that I might left (maybe maybe not) and exfil with an even greater quickness / urgency.

While it might sound like I am against the idea of a dump pouch, I'm really not. I'm just not covinced or haven't found the one that is right for me yet for any given scenario that I've either observed, been in or imagine being in. For now, the MM MKII chest rig works for me and doesn't add more crap to my first line gear at my waistline that might cause me to have to invest stock in a waxpaper company to keep my candy-ass from sticking to the chair when I go to get up because of the back problems that I might develop from referenced unnecessary crap on my belt!

I'm up for relevant and practical suggestions otherwise ... GO!

[4track]

I agree with what you are saying, Dedicated.

Magazine retention is another of those areas of tactics that often has different meanings to different individuals, mostly of which dictated by occupational and situational factors.

I should have been a bit more clear with my initial post.

As an ARMED CITIZEN, the following is my policy:

I drop expended magazines directly onto the deck whenever I am performing an EMERGENCY RELOAD; i.e. when I am still facing an active threat, but the magazine in my weapon is depleted. I immediately replace it with a fresh magazine from my kit.

If I survive the fight, then I can retrieve my spent magazines from the deck later, situationally dependent, of course.

If I loose some, and cannot get them back, yet I lived to see another day...well which is more important in the long run?

In my opinion, next to ammunition, magazines are the second most expendable component of semiautomatic firearms....that is why shooters should have MANY of them in reserve. Not only do they get lost, but they also get damaged and the internal parts do have a finite service life.

I currently only use my dump pouch only for ADMINISTRATIVE RELOADS. (some call them "tactical" reloads); i.e, when the immediate threat has ceased, and/or the situation allows me to replace a partially depleted magazine in my weapon with a fully loaded magazine from my kit.

I exchange magazines, and then drop the partially depleted magazine into the dump pouch for use if/when all of my full magazines are expended.

When I was an ARMED PROFESSIONAL, I did use a Maxpedtion Rolly Polly dump pouch on my duty belt...but not for gun fights, as I never once had to fire my duty weapon. I mounted it just next to my magazine pouches:



At that time I used it for many other utilitarian purposes: stowing confiscated drugs and weapons or other property that I need to rapidly take possession of, carrying multiple sets handcuffs or leg irons, dumping a box of shot shells into whenever I had to break out the shotgun, carrying chemical munitions like CS, etc.

To me, the dump pouch is a very versatile tool that can be used in a variety of roles.

In fact, in addition to holding magazines, the CSM Gear dump pouch that I currently use also carries my Nomex flight gloves, a Chem Light, and a 4-pack of CR123 batteries...things that I want at arm's reach, but that I don't want to have to dig through a pack to find.

The dump pouch is a catch-all for gear that I want to retain.

[Willieboy]

Good stuff guys. Thanks for the great pictures 4Track. I have an Original S.O.E Mookie War Rig Light that has a zipper across the top, behind the magazine pouches, that could accept spent magazines. The only possible issue with this chest rig is that is rather shallow and magazines would have to lay flat. As I grow in the AK platform, I will give the CSM Gear pouch a try, unless something similar becomes available from UW Gear.

[Horse]

I think the point here is that we really don't need UW gear to make a normal dump pouch that is just like everyone elses, just UW made/branded.


The goal here is to get a BETTER design.
I personally don't have a MM YET - but I love the idea of the top stash point. Its super fast and offers decent retention while not impeding any movement etc.

I'll have to try it in person first, but the idea is sound. I've done this very same thing many times before when other options didn't work as they were supposed to.

[4track]

In the old days, before the advent of any style of modern dump pouch, shooters would dump their spent magazines down the front of their uniform tops (which were tucked in at the waistline).

This low-tech, field expedient solution worked well for many years, and the UW Gear Minute Man's inner pocket carries on this tradition.

By the way, BDU pants pockets work well, too.

[matt]

I answered above but I thought I would go into some more detail.

I have been through about a million dump pouches. It took some trial and error to find the ones that work and by "work" I mean that actually retain the magazines without leaving a yard sale behind you as you run.

I started with the Maxpeditions but quickly found that while they are convenient, they aren't ideal. As I said above, I still have several of them and find that they work as long as the top is kept cinched fairly tight. I have to jam my hand with the magazine through the opening. The mag stay in this way but it is fairly slow. I have relegated these to use as expandable storage on backpacks or for use on rigs that I rarely need a dump pouch with. For instance, I might keep one on a chest rig that I typically use with a belt mounted dump pouch so that if I have to go without the belt rig, the chest rig can be pressed into the role of a stand-alone fighting rig.

Next, I tried a couple of different dump pouches that were attached to the leg like a subload. These were the worst. They are very bulky and since they are attached rigidly to your leg they tend to bounce all of their contents out. They move with your leg instead of moving with the contents.

I finally settled on the CSM Gear or CSM Gear style dump pouches (Specter Gear, DBT, and others make them). These pouches have excellent retention, they stay open well, and they work very well on a belt. They attach at the very top of the pouch and this is key. When you move, it is able to swing and move with the content of the pouch so nothing bounces out.

Lately, I have been testing the Ten Speed Dump Pouches from Blue Force Gear. They have a lot going for them. They are very compact and very light weight. They are the perfect dump pouch for gear that may not always use a dump pouch with - there if need it, unnoticed if your don't. The only problem with them is that they don't stay open which isn't much of a problem because I train to put my whole hand in with the mag - not just drop them.

To wrap it up, I have found that it is key that your dump pouch mount in such a way that it is free to move and swing with its contents. This is the most reliable method of keeping magazines in the pouch.

[Dedicatedpro]

Funny add-on to go with my earlier post on the subject ... I've been between Iraq and Afghanistan for the past year seeing maybe one or two dump pouches and yesterday I saw two Marines and three contractors that had dump pouches on their battle belts ... I thought of this thread and smiled to myself. I like Matt's idea of using them with a pack for extra gear, but the jury is still out for me considering one as a piece of first or second line gear.