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Post by Diz on Jan 11, 2015 16:48:23 GMT -5
On this trigger pull thing. I will probably be slammed but will say it anyway. The slick trigger pull is mostly a competition, target shooting requirement. A 1911 trigger can be fine tuned to a couple of pounds of pressure, which makes for a very accurate-shooting weapon, standing still on the range, with a stationary paper target. My contention is that, within the context of an armed civilian in a self-defense scenario, a smooth trigger may be all but irrelevant to your situation. You may be assaulted and have to fight your way to your pistol and shoot the guy off of you. I would say this is probably going to be closer to reality than drawing and firing at someone 10-20 meters away from you. Once you have that kind of distance, you should be maneuvering instead of staying on the "X".
The vast majority of pistol training, even the so-called "tactical" or "defensive" training consists of shooting at distances between 5-20 meters. Very little approaches the CQB distances that are highly likely to be encountered. If you take a hard look at the requirements in these distances, you would see smooth trigger pull would be way down the list of requirements.
The military shooting teams love "match grade" weapons, which often include very light triggers. While great for competition, I would submit they are not optimized for our particular needs. Better to have a heavier "striker"-fired weapon that can be carried essentially as a loaded revolver, than any single, or double-action weapon, in my opinion.
There are many 1911 fans out there. I used to one of them. I just don't happen to think it makes a good choice, for most folks, as a self-defense weapon. It, like the M-1/M-14 have almost cult-like followings, which sometimes has traditions trumping practical applications.
Separating your hobby from real-world use is a hard, painful process. I would much rather shoot a 1911. But a Glock is a much better choice.
Give me a class of 20 guys for a week to explore real-world self-defense applications. I would guess 18-19 of those guys would be willing to switch over to a Glock (or similar) weapon by the end of the week. At least one guy would probably refuse to see reality and stick to that old time religion. But the rest, if they're honest, would see the advantage of this simple, striker-fired weapon, with no external safeties. As opposed to a weapon with grip and thumb safeties, and a slide lock with no spring tension.
Honestly, I just don't get why so many folks insist on sticking with "Thor's Hammer" instead of something truly optimized for CQB as we will likely encounter.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 11, 2015 16:57:25 GMT -5
I'd take Thor's Hammer for CQB, I've seen the films!  (But I get your point - I don't think anyone would actually argue that having a fancy trigger is going to make you a magically better shot/more likely to survive in a real fight...) |
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Jan 11, 2015 17:05:59 GMT -5
Diz, I doubt it would even take a week for that realization to set in!
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Post by hudson5969 on Jan 11, 2015 18:44:52 GMT -5
The 1911 is a wonderful weapon and a joy to shoot, but I have to agree its time as a combat weapon is pretty much over, and has been.
But to be honest, with the M&P and XD(M), the Glocks have fallen behind.
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bigen
New Member
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Post by bigen on Jan 11, 2015 19:47:16 GMT -5
the double stack mag is a joke, and there's other problem with the wonder guns, too. But yes, cocked and locked carry does expose the sear/hammer notch to sand/grit, precipitation/mud, and that'd definitely bad news.
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bigen
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Post by bigen on Jan 11, 2015 19:47:27 GMT -5
the double stack mag is a joke, and there's other problem with the wonder guns, too. But yes, cocked and locked carry does expose the sear/hammer notch to sand/grit, precipitation/mud, and that'd definitely bad news.
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Post by Diz on Jan 12, 2015 16:17:55 GMT -5
Hoo boy, here we go.
Got my nine-teen 'leven by side,
and if you see me comin', you better break wide.
My tactical wheelbarrow is rollin' along,
I can go anywhere, it won't take long,
No sky is too high, No blast is too fast,
No muff is too tough, You call and I'll fall.
Cuz my wheelbarrow n me,
can drop by air, land or sea,
And when we hit the 'zone,
you'll be history.
So never doubt,
the gunkid is about,
Armageddon ain't shit
I'm equipped for it.
Peace-out, bitches!
Very true, the M&P and XD goodness look very good, but again, I'm looking for an extended track record before switching over. Only took me 20+ years to warm up to a Glock!
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 12, 2015 16:37:17 GMT -5
Hoo boy, here we go. Got my nine-teen 'leven by side, and if you see me comin', you better break wide. My tactical wheelbarrow is rollin' along, I can go anywhere, it won't take long, No sky is too high, No blast is too fast, No muff is too tough, You call and I'll fall. Cuz my wheelbarrow n me, can drop by air, land or sea, And when we hit the 'zone, you'll be history. So never doubt, the gunkid is about, Armageddon ain't shit I'm equipped for it. Peace-out, bitches! Very true, the M&P and XD goodness look very good, but again, I'm looking for an extended track record before switching over. Only took me 20+ years to warm up to a Glock! You should work for British Defence Procurement. Only takes them 20 years to decide they like something (usually by which point whatever gets built is 15 year old tech and twice as heavy as it needs to be ). (I get why, for you, mind. It's only having seen the glock get more and more testing that we adopted it, and from there I've fired it and I fell in love. For me, it's the lack of anything but a trigger to focus on that makes it a PROPER combat weapon.) |
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Post by Diz on Jan 12, 2015 16:55:47 GMT -5
Yeah I understand bureaucratic inertia, or lack there-of, and that's a piss-poor excuse to hold up innovation. But I also don't want to be the surfing on the cutting edge before it has a good track record. I mean I love some of the newer weapons designs, like the Tavor, Beretta, FN-SCAR, and so forth. But I don't want to trust my ass to the latest-gen stuff until it's been around awhile. That's just good judgement, IMHO.
In the pistol realm, even more so. The G-19 is so ubiquitous, that's it's virtually available around the globe. Ammo, mags, spare parts, easy-peasy.
In a few years, I'd like nothing better than a SCAR light, with a good M&P to back it up. But for now, the AR and Glock is where it's at for me.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jan 12, 2015 16:57:44 GMT -5
Yep. Tavor and glock for me. I'm happy with the Tavor's time in service, personally. I know that'll vary for some people and I think that's a very personal decision. They've a solid decade or so service now, and that's good enough for me.
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Jan 12, 2015 20:08:33 GMT -5
Very true, the M&P and XD goodness look very good, but again, I'm looking for an extended track record before switching over. Only took me 20+ years to warm up to a Glock! I like the reviews I have read and people that i have talked with that own one seem to say good things about them. But I'm waiting for a longevity report as well. I have the M&P .22 pistol and it seems to be doing okay, but I only have about 1000 rnds thru it. Only troubles I had were a couple FTF, but that was in the first 100 rounds thru it. After that, no probs. |
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Post by hudson5969 on Jan 13, 2015 0:46:38 GMT -5
I own more Glocks than all other pistol types combined.
After buying the XD(M), the Glocks just sit.
YMMV
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Post by Diz on Jan 13, 2015 8:09:45 GMT -5
I don't doubt the performance is there. Lord knows the Glock is not the smoothest weapon on the planet.
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Post by waffenmacht on Jan 13, 2015 11:09:09 GMT -5
I guess I better step in here and represent the Italian Stallion, Beretta. I carry the Px4 as a daily carry, also use the full size Px4 as a combat handgun. My defensive round is the 9mm 147 grain bonded Winchester Ranger T...I've used a few variations (evolution's) of that round through the years. When it comes to defensive rounds there are MANY great options, in whatever caliber you prefer. As long as you are using a proven round with a tested history you should be good to go. Truth is the 9mm fmj has probably killed more people then any other single handgun round...(the Germans put an awful lot of them in the backs of skulls back in the day). By no means am I saying 9mm is the greatest round, but there is no doubt it can be made to work effectively. Shot placement is still key, couple that with a modern expanding round from a reputable manufacturer and your chances of winning are increased. Anyone else prefer the double/single action handguns over 1911's and striker fired flavors?
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Jan 13, 2015 11:43:49 GMT -5
I can't say I *prefer* it, but I can run a DA/SA just fine. The Sig P226 is a very good gun, the DA isn't horrible and the SA isn't bad either.
FWIW Backs of skulls don't count in my book.
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