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Post by DeadeyeD on Nov 22, 2016 8:18:22 GMT -5
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Post by judomayhem on Nov 22, 2016 19:08:03 GMT -5
Interesting, thanks for posting.
Given a choice for that role, I'd go for a reliable pistol caliber carbine in the same cal as my sidearm.
Reliable being the key word.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 23, 2016 14:14:16 GMT -5
Interesting, thanks for posting. Given a choice for that role, I'd go for a reliable pistol caliber carbine in the same cal as my sidearm. Reliable being the key word. In that role, or anything remotely like it, unless the pistol calibre carbine has some benefit OVER a rifle calibre one (so, for example... I see no advantage to an AR in 9mm, but I get the advantages of that keltec folding thing..) what benefit is there to a pistol calibre carbine? I honestly don't think enough rounds are carried at any one time in a purely defensive role (as opposed to warfighting/doorkicking offensive roles..) for there to be much advantage to having ALL 9mm, or all .45 etc... What draws you to the concept other than what I've mentioned, over, say, an AR15? |
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Post by judomayhem on Nov 24, 2016 12:14:55 GMT -5
It's a weight/handiness issue.
Even an M4 is too big a PITA to consistently carry in your hands or sling over your back while doing mundane chores.
Even when they would come out to do admin stuff in the field with us, I almost never saw POGs take their weapons out of their vehicles. Now that I think about it, they were usually kept in racks by their desks and/or cots.
Human beings are inherently lazy. A short, featherweight M1 carbine (or similar) would go a long ways towards mitigating that tendency.
~2C
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 24, 2016 14:27:36 GMT -5
It's a weight/handiness issue. Even an M4 is too big a PITA to consistently carry in your hands or sling over your back while doing mundane chores. Even when they would come out to do admin stuff in the field with us, I almost never saw POGs take their weapons out of their vehicles. Now that I think about it, they were usually kept in racks by their desks and/or cots. Human beings are inherently lazy. A short, featherweight M1 carbine (or similar) would go a long ways towards mitigating that tendency. ~2C Please don't take this as a personal thing; Whilst I'd agree reference the initial point of handiness (I am ruined because I have spent so much time with a bullpup I think all standard rifles are set up wierd, unless it's bolt action, and I still find them front heavy and awkward outside supported shooting...) The weight issue is... a fallacy. www.colt.com/Portals/0/Specs/2016/CE2000.pdf Colt rifle M4 in 5.56 at 6.44lbs www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=237&CFID=585930644&CFTOKEN=51779883 rock river arms M4 style pistol calibre carbine, in 9mm at 7.1lbs Sure, centre of gravity and some handling will be slightly different, but the bulk is the same. Go AK47 and you'd be up .2 of a lb www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/arsenal-slr107fr-31-762x39-side-folding-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0 and you've got a folding stock included. The Sub-2000 specifically beats these in terms of weight and I'm pretty sure overall dimensions. I'm also going to go right ahead and say something that I know a whole bunch of people are going to disagree with; You don't have to actually carry your rifle ALL the time. If you are working the land, or doing some sort of engineering task, you are going to put down ANY weapon, pistol calibre carbine or rifle calibre carbine. If there is a threat that is immediate, and has somehow managed to get into pistol range; use one. If the threat is immediate, and is far enough away that you need something with a long barrel, I would suggest unless you are ready for it, they've already got the drop on you and the first thing you want to do even if you have the rifle to hand is probably make yourself some cover. I'm not saying it should be hundreds of metres away. But on the back of your truck or 10ft away whilst you dig or do whatever is NOT the end of the world. I can't speak for the Americans, but even our 'POGs' are required to carry weapons everywhere; they don't get left in vehicles (or certainly never have been with anyone I've actually worked with. Obvs I can't confirm for everyone, ever...) Mostly, what I am trying to argue (though I am aware I have probably meandered some) is that the 'pistol calibre' in pistol calibre carbine seems... mostly illogical, when you can have a rifle calibre carbine. And let's be honest; In the USA, 95% of the time you're either at home, and you aren't carrying a long gun around with you, you're in the car and you don't have it to hand regardless of calibre, or you're out somewhere and again... you probably don't have it with you. May as well with the biggest calibre weapon you can shoot in the smallest package you can get away with. Example; Glock 19 seems to be the favoured size/calibre of anyone in the glock world. If the 26 shot better people would carry it, and if they could carry something with more stopping power and still shoot it succesfully, I'm sure they'd carry that, too. |
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Post by judomayhem on Nov 24, 2016 15:38:17 GMT -5
Private ownership of AK's and AR's has skyrocketed in the last 15 years. But generally speaking, when people in the US refer to PCC's they aren't focused on AK's or M4's chambered for a handgun round. Those weapons are still pretty rare here. On the other hand, about half of the gun owners I know already own light weight semi-auto Kel-Tecs, Marlins, Rugers, etc in 9, 40, 44 and 45. Usually chambered for the same cartridge as their sidearm. There are also a crapload of M-1 Carbines still floating about (a weapon designed specifically for the purpose laid out in the original article). Then we have a small but steady demand for short lever actions in 38, 357 and 44 which have been in constant production for about 100 years.
The APC use of various subguns/PCC's has been common in semi-civilized danger zones like Latin America, Rhodesia, South Africa and Israel, and I can easily see them being a civilian's first choice for light defensive use once again.
Thankfully, we are free to choose whatever we want.
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 25, 2016 11:37:54 GMT -5
There we go - See, pistol calibre carbine, based on what I get exposure to and what other people have said makes me think 'carbine, in a pistol calibre'. As in a standard, modern military carbine chambered down. Whilst I'm not sure the M1 carbine counts as light (M1 Carbine as in M1A from Springfield seems... heavy, though I'd say worth it for the firepower...) I'd definitely take one.
I wasn't aware most of the lever action stuff is pistol calibre. How come?
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Post by judomayhem on Nov 25, 2016 13:56:43 GMT -5
Whilst I'm not sure the M1 carbine counts as light (M1 Carbine as in M1A from Springfield seems... heavy, though I'd say worth it for the firepower...) I'd definitely take one. I wasn't aware most of the lever action stuff is pistol calibre. How come? This conversation would be soooo much easier in a pub. If you ever get to SoCal look me up. Our bases here are used by the U.K. for training sometimes. Make it happen.  Some history: THE Springfield Armory was a legendary federally owned design and manufacturing entity finally shut down by Prez Clinton. The NAME was quickly snatched up by some clever businessmen and registered as a trademark. They began in the mid 1990's to produce rather substandard* M-14's for the civilian market, but for reasons unknown to me call it the M1A. This M1A family of weapons (Standard, Scout, etc) is what you typically see in gun magazines or civilian websites. Popular, it is reliable but NOT as long lasting as the forged M-14's that our military has used off and on since the 1960's. The civilian model has a life expectancy of 10,000 rounds, compared to the 100,000 rounds of the high quality, hammer forged steel weapons still in limited use ceremonially and by our snipers. The term M-1 is confusing as it refers to THREE distinct weapons commonly seen in the US: The M-1 Garand- Used in WW2 and Korea. Semi-auto 30-06. Universally loved and you've seen it in a bunch of movies. The M1A (Civilian M-14). A decent rifle for those who can't drop several thousand dollars on a hammer forged mil spec M-14 from a custom shop. 7.62x51 (.308) The M-1 CARBINE- A featherweight rifle that feels almost like a toy in your hand. Used from WW2-Vietnam by officers, artillery gunners and support troops for whom carrying a full size Garand would be a pain in the ass. It fires the oddball ".30 Carbine" cartridge that is similar in size to 5.56. Less expensive to produce and much easier to shoot accurately compared to a handgun, it is typically seen in the same WW2 movies as the Garand. The FMJ .30 carbine cartridges developed a bit of a bad reputation in Korea, where chicoms wearing thick winter clothes were reported to not go down after being hit multiple times. However, civilian Police SWAT teams on the East Coast had wonderful results shooting criminal scum with them once hollow point rounds came on the market in the 1970's. Military M-1 Carbines flooded the market from the 1950's-1970's, but are now getting rare and expensive. Private firms have made lower quality ones from time to time and those are still easily found. A LEGIT milspec version would be ideal for women, smaller teens, and as a defensive arm for those not expecting a full on infantry engagement. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbineAs for lever action carbines, the most popular cartridge is still the legendary 30-30, but anything rimmed can be loaded in the device. So versions firing the less expensive revolver rounds are popular enough to stay in production. Every year, deer are harvested with .357 and .44 magnum rounds, which reach their full potential from a carbine length barrel. |
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Post by panzer0170 on Nov 25, 2016 19:16:50 GMT -5
1) Everything is easier in the pub. 2) I was aware of the Garand and the M1A, but not the Carbine, but yes to the carbine version of the M1A, which isn't the carbine, but is A carbine, which isn't the same thing as a carabiner. 3) '.30 carbine' sounds... something like it might be a reverse version of 300 blackout? 4)Lever action carbines are pretty as fuck, and in my mind hold the same place as a really nice engraved double barrelled shotgun. 5) Reference '1)'... The first round is on you  |
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Post by UnforseenWeather on Nov 26, 2016 9:41:12 GMT -5
There is also a nice benefit from those Old West guys with their carbines and pistols being the same caliber: they had to carry only one kind of ammo!
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Post by omnivorous on Nov 26, 2016 19:32:44 GMT -5
3) '.30 carbine' sounds... something like it might be a reverse version of 300 blackout? Not really... It's more like a 30-06 projectile, sat in widened 5.56mm case. The M1 carbine has been supplanted by the M4, in my slightly educated opinion. On the article linked to in the OP, if the situation has the possibilty for engagement, to where one would want to have a long-gun on one's person or in the immediate vacinity, my two questions are: 1. Is this task that critical? 2. Is no one else available to pull security? |
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Post by whitebear620 on Nov 26, 2016 23:22:20 GMT -5
3) '.30 carbine' sounds... something like it might be a reverse version of 300 blackout? Not really... It's more like a 30-06 projectile, sat in widened 5.56mm case. The M1 carbine has been supplanted by the M4, in my slightly educated opinion. On the article linked to in the OP, if the situation has the possibilty for engagement, to where one would want to have a long-gun on one's person or in the immediate vacinity, my two questions are: 1. Is this task that critical? 2. Is no one else available to pull security? To be fair, I think it would a smart idea if feasible to always have a rifle available. Carrying it slung just decreases the chance that it will be left behind when the task at hand is finished, my wife and I would probably never leave our rifles unattended in the hypothetical situation (probably because of flashbacks of angry drill sergeants), but my step mother might because she doesn't have experience of living with a rifle within three feet of you at all times. Also, manpower will be limited especially if power is out and people come to terms with working more outside and without A/C, more injuries will occur and more breaks might be required in the beginning, yes breaks can be staggered with those on break pulling security but maybe that guy taking a break in the shade from digging in the garden isn't the best idea for sentry. And yes you are correct, from what I've read the M4 was essentially supposed to be to the M16 as the M1 carbine is to the Garand, but it's smaller sized suited a lot of our tactics so we switched over to M4s mostly at least in the Guard and Army. |
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Post by surajkumar on May 23, 2017 2:04:56 GMT -5
I think Pistol is far better than a rifle.If You try a Pistol by Glock it is better than the best.
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ulf
New Member
Posts: 106 
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Post by ulf on May 23, 2017 8:18:08 GMT -5
For work details, I'd retain my war belt with pistol, two pistol mags and 3+ rifle mags. I'd go with either an AR pistol or AK folder for compactness.
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