Question about the chest rig/armor carrier vs belt kit

[wolffpack]

Here's the question, when wearing your ammunition and med kit on your chest via rig or mounted to an armor carrier, has anyone thought about the fact that if you take a round to the chest -- where most people will be aiming (let's assume you're wearing armor, so the hit to the chest isn't "the bigger problem"), you will lose 1/4 to 1/2 of your ammunition depending on the layout of the rig.  You also might take one through the med kit, which ironically would mean your chest seals just got drilled, you lost a good portion of your trauma kit?

I realize that chest mounted gear is pretty much the only way to roll if you're fighting from inside a vehicle, and can make climbing obstacles easier than belt gear, but it seems for most applications for both the reason above, and the fact that the weight is on your hips, not your lower back, the belt kit is the way to go.

I really do not know the answer to this, as there's advantages to both, and disadvantages to both.

[protus]

I carry extra mags and med in my pack.
In the context of most of our end goals. A round to the chest. Armor or not is the main concern.

[wolffpack]

I get that, but still, you may not have time, especially in a CQ situation to be getting extra mags from your pack, or the guy trying to seal a wound to find your secondary trauma kit, assuming you carry more than one.

There's no perfect answer, but it just hit me the other day that if I took a round through the rig, even if it just hits armor and hurts, I just lost a good portion of my ready ammo.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

My primary BOK is on my CR to the left of center. If that gets hit I have a secondary TQ on my belt and secondary BOK supplies in a kit on my back waist area that I can reach with either hand. As far as loosing ammo, you make the same case no matter where you carry your spare mags....waist, chest, pack...any of these areas could take a hit in a FF.

[panzer0170]

If you get hit in the chest with armour on by anything that the armour is going to save, you're probably going to have medical isues that your BOK isn't going to take care of anyway.

If you get hit in the chest with armour on by anything that armour is going to save, you're probably going to be at least mildly distracted enough that you won't be shooting back directly anyway.

I have a personal preference for belt gear, but I'd say the issue you're thinking about is kind of a moot point because of the contents of a BOK the location of the wound etc. If you have a secondary BOK (Or even your full IFAK) accessible on your daysack you've got around the only potential snag, IMO; Someone else being able to treat you rapidly from your own gear. If the round HAS penetrated they've still got to get your armour off to start with, which is going to give someone time to sort out everything else. And lets not forget step one of medical treatment in a gunfight; WIN the firefight.

[whitebear620]

My current chest rig, one of the APC2s (shameless plug for Hawkeye), carries three mags across the front. So let's say I take one to the chest.
-I'm fucked because I just got shot in the chest and the only backup I have is my wife who now has to worry about suppressing whoever shot me and possibly treating me, current situation as it stands that I am trying to remedy.
-My chest rig has one visible TQ on the left side, but it probably doesn't matter if that gets hit unless the bullet went through a limb before or after hitting my chest, or unless I've been shot more than once in the chest (probably likely if you've gotten shot in the first place), well the bullet probably does take one of my mags with it but I really have more to worry about right then.
-My IFAK is carried in my left cargo pocket (Daily EDC, do you carry your IFAK everyday, if not, then why not?), with a secondary IFAK to be carried in my assault pack, so one of these shouldn't be affected if I took a round to the chest.

This is likely one of the only areas where I have actual training and experience, former 68W "Medic".
So put yourself in your buddy's shoes, they see you take a round to the chest and hopefully achieve fire superiority. Run over, drag your ass to cover (or better cover), now they've gotta treat you out of your IFAK or unfortunately theirs (I know it's not recommended and advised, but shit happens). You're wearing a belt kit, where's your IFAK? On the back of your belt kit like a lot of guys carry theirs? Now they've gotta roll you over and grab your IFAK to start treating you, I hope you packed your IFAK in a way that's pretty painless to get out so they don't grab the contents and everything either just goes flying or is impossible to get out.
Now let's say you had your IFAK mounted on your chest rig/armor and by your horrible luck the bullet happens to go right through your IFAK. It probably destroys your gauze, dressing, TQ, and your chest seals. Now's the time where it's awesome to have an IFAK in your assault pack because the process goes pretty much the same as a belt mounted IFAK except that somebody rips your assault pack off of you and grabs your IFAK from it.
There's a few advantages of having that IFAK mounted on your belt kit, but in an injury that's anything except a bullet going through your IFAK on your chest rig, it's far easier for either you or your buddy to treat you from a chest mounted IFAK because most people treat casualties with the casualty laying on their back which means the IFAK is in your "work space".

Like anything else, you need to weigh your options and determine what's best for your AO and situation, but there's my thoughts. I carry my IFAK in my cargo pocket because it's where it always is and I'm trying to keep my chest rig as slim as I can while still having what I need on my person, it work for me as an armed citizen. Sorry for the long winded response, just wanted to fully explain my support for chest mounted IFAKs.

[wolffpack]

Good replies, a lot of things I hadn't thought of. Thanks, guys.

I've just perused a lot of forums and schools that teach the SWAT type "stand and deliver" type training and the guys all had only the mags and BOK on their rig, and a hydration carrier if anything, on their back.

Reading here and MVT forum, it seems you guys train very differently, and to my amateur eyes, in a way that makes more sense for urban or rural ops.

[Hawkeye]

What SWAT and Law Enforcement do, is a very different thing than what we'll have to do if things ever go south. That's why its important not to get wrapped up in what others are doing, and do what fits "you".

[protus]

Jun 25, 2016 10:02:56 GMT -5 wolffpack said:

I get that, but still, you may not have time, especially in a CQ situation to be getting extra mags from your pack, or the guy trying to seal a wound to find your secondary trauma kit, assuming you carry more than one.

There's no perfect answer, but it just hit me the other day that if I took a round through the rig, even if it just hits armor and hurts, I just lost a good portion of my ready ammo.

If there's a buddy he knows where my secondary is. He also knows where my spare mags are.
Shtf unless I gotta go indoors to rescue a loved on..fire is on the menu.
Indoors will be for clearing for safety reason. Pack will be dropped. Extra ammo carried and topped off.

I'm at work so your getting the blunt answers. So I apoligize for that.

Structure clearing is a necessary task. Not to be over looked.
If I have armor sure ill wear it if I gotta clear a room.
But I'm no ninja.
I fight light.
Four cell rig..TQ and Izzy on left and right sides.(with shears) .
Belt kit holds two side arm reloads..two rifle mags. Ifak/bok whatever you wish to call it. Clearly marked. Knife..flash light..small odds/ends bag. Sidearm.
Pack is more mags. Extra ifak for me or others..water...more water ..snivelling gear to fit weather and mission duration.etc etco

[protus]

Jun 27, 2016 8:35:42 GMT -5 Hawkeye said:

What SWAT and Law Enforcement do, is a very different thing than what we'll have to do if things ever go south. That's why its important not to get wrapped up in what others are doing, and do what fits "you".

True...but then we wouldn't have internet threads on
What pants...what gun..what camo...what rig..what belt....
People like to emulate those guys in gear choices....
However if their smart they'll test and test etc.


Here's a lil story.
Few days ago a close buddy was over. He had done some work yo his rifle. He's pretty new to all this. So I'm going over some dry runs for him to learn and practice.
So I'm prone...pew pew click..roll slightly over to my right...remove mag...insert mag. Charge ..pew pew.
I get this reply.
"Your doing it hard..why roll like that .."

My reply.."go put your rig on...see how easy it is to do it the way you were doing it. And well compare.."

Then the light bulb started to glow.

[eddiewouldclearhot]

dont over think this. get your gear squared away, and know how to use your rifle/pistol/ IFAK. Trust me, there will be plenty of bigger things to worry about on the two way range.

your medical kit is for you. that said, if yours is gone, everyone carries extra. if you have a dedicated medic, thats literally his job. if not, remember team.

hope that helps. hard to answer this question.

[protus]

Jul 3, 2016 19:34:32 GMT -5 eddiewouldclearhot said:

dont over think this. get your gear squared away, and know how to use your rifle/pistol/ IFAK. Trust me, there will be plenty of bigger things to worry about on the two way range.

your medical kit is for you. that said, if yours is gone, everyone carries extra. if you have a dedicated medic, thats literally his job. if not, remember team.[
br]
hope that helps. hard to answer this question.

To expand more.

My main ifak is on my belt. Its a tear away. Clearly marked. With a big black aid cross (Velcro strips) .
On my rig. Is the basic self aid get me back in the fight shit. That's 1-izzys and 1CAT on each side of the rig. Why?
what if I get hammered in the left arm...or on.my strong side. What if I need two TQs rfn? Idont shot one round. I'm to guess neither will the bad guys.

You don't have to have your gear set up just one way. It doesn't need to.look like a call of duty game character or some Delta guys kit.
Set it up. Train with it and damn sure make sure your team knows the following -

Mags -here
Ifak - HERE
Tq - here and here.

And you do the same for them.
In our context your buddy knowing. Where that second TQ is BEFORE you've made contact could save both of you.

Ymmv.

[Erick]

Jun 27, 2016 8:35:42 GMT -5 Hawkeye said:

What SWAT and Law Enforcement do, is a very different thing than what we'll have to do if things ever go south. That's why its important not to get wrapped up in what others are doing, and do what fits "you".

Let me pontificate on Hawk's excellent point.

The TTPs used by SWAT and LEO (and some more specialized .mil units) are developed for  a very different space than that of the prepper/freedom fighter/1st Defender paradigm.

Just one example: SWAT usually gets followed around by a van full of water and ammo.

So many SWAT teams dont employ a water solution and also carry less ammo than someone who needs to sustain longer and on his own.
This gives them more weight for armor and their rig will look different.

Do you get followed around by a van full of Ammo and water?

This is one reason why emulating them will cause folks new to all this to adopt rigs that are very much sub-optimal for the prepper/freedom fighter/1st Defender paradigm.

The big Army and the USMC in the last decade and a half have spent  a lot of time as paramilitary occupation forces.
Static manning of checkpoints, lots of riding around in vehicles etc etc.

As a result their kit are packed full with more and more stuff (armor, radios, extra ammo etc etc) as personal mobility takes  a back seat.

The availability of fire support has in many people's opinion de-emphasized maneuver to close with and destroy the enemy.
(usually this is where my infantry buddies gets insulted but no serious student of modern military trends denies this has been happening and many papers have been written at the War College and elsewhere on this subject)

Individual maneuver will be much more important for you as  a prepper since your goal probably should be the classic Light Infantry outlook.
A good example of this is the pre-GWOT Rangers whose load out you would do well to study.

In summary its important to be a minimalist and not overload yourself with lots of nice-to-have stuff .

No matter what the "item" is there are always  guys who can (truthfully) say, "carrying item X saved my buddy in combat", but this is usually anecdotal and you must look at your loadout from a one size fits YOU view.

The PoU of  a prepper is not manning checkpoints or riding around in vehicles as a occupation patrol (as the US .mil has done 80% of its work in lately) but very nearly the opposite.

So just because its being done this way and that way ,in SWAT or Army/USMC does not mean we as preppers must slavishy emulate it.

[wolffpack]

Do you have any sources on the pre-GWOT Ranger? All I find is new stuff.

And there's the rub, ther really is a use for all the shit people carry. Question is where to stop? Laser on your rifle? Great if you're running NVGs. Running a laser and NVGs? How many spares of batteries to carry (they weight a lot)? How much ammo or water do you sacrifice (you other heaviest items).

"Travel light, freeze at night". But at what point does being cold all the time degrade your performance enough that carrying extra shelter weight is justified (I consider clothing part of shelter).

From what I read, these questions have been asked since the beginning of time, and not yet resolved, but it is something that has to be asked, and I just have no answers, due to lack of experience.

[Erick]

Jul 9, 2016 23:21:28 GMT -5 wolffpack said:

Do you have any sources on the pre-GWOT Ranger? All I find is new stuff.

And there's the rub, ther really is a use for all the shit people carry. Question is where to stop? Laser on your rifle? Great if you're running NVGs. Running a laser and NVGs? How many spares of batteries to carry (they weight a lot)? How much ammo or water do you sacrifice (you other heaviest items).
.

www.amazon.com/Ranger-Handbook-21-76-June-1988/dp/B000MKNFLY (later editions get more detailed and so larger/longer.. more details is good for a actual ranger but we dont need that granularity at least not until we have the more basic content of this older edition "down" which can take a while...)


You're right for every single thing there is a need.
 Lets see,... what do people add...

handgun.. it's a must have! ...Extra batteries .. it's a must have! .. ...fighting knife...it's a must have! .... armor and helmet.. it's a must have! .... compass.. it's a must have! ... radio... it's a must have! .. sleeping bag.. it's a must have! ..spare bold carrier group.. it's a must have! ... spare boots... it's a must have! .. extra ammo in the pack... it's a must have! ... entrenching tool... it's a must have! ...spare IFAK... it's a must have! ...deluxe gun cleaning kit it's a must have! ..Binoculars.. it's a must have! ...notepad with pens (two is one and one is none).. it's a must have! ..leatherman.. it's a must have! .... couple of MREs...it's a must have! ..NVGs.. it's a must have!

etc etc etc besides the cost for folks equipped themselves on their own dime... where does it end?

I believe the Operational Concept of being a civilian 1st Defender should revolve around being something of a minimalist.

Just as an example, (after all I am just another guy on the internet and my result may not be the same as yours)....The operational enviroment I look at will mostly be:

light short range patrolling in hilly terrain w/o use of motor vehicles.

.so ALL I carry for that (besides the outfit I wear) is:

freshly cleaned-oiled Rifle, w/ 7 mags (one in the gun 6 on my rig). Rifle has one of the lightest weapons mounted light on it on the market, the single battery Inforce. No lasers IR or otherwise unless its a night patrol
water (camelback)
1st aid kit

Thats it.. I might also carry a cleaning kit with the rod assembly just in case I get a catastrohpic failure... But... In now nearly 20,000 rds thu my LWRC I have NEVER had  a stuck case or a squibb with it.
I did have a squibb once in my entire life.... and since I will never carry enough ammo on me to induce failures due to dirtiness in the rifle not sure if I will even carry the cleaning kit.. right now its in my rig though (along with spare socks, underwarm t-shirt) since I am set up for a overnight patrol in summertime.
So engaging in risk management ruthlessly cutting all weight so I can be agile in difficult terrain...I will cut out things that are holy components of their kit to others.

I might add a bump helmet as they are so light you barely notice you wear them and they come in camo now...


Night patrol: Same as above except using rifle in night config so add the weight of a DBAL (vis and IR laser), add ballistic FAST helmet to mount my NVG (lighter methods to mount NVG do exist though!) Add a single spare C123 battery which can go in either my NVG or my light


Long range patrol gets more complex + heavier but how many of us will really have to do long range patrols?

Forced Entry into a structure where bad guys are holding friends or family:
Add plate carrier with plates, ballistic FAST helmet (no good against direct fire rifle rounds but can be useful against some ricochets, hard bumps etc) add handgun
Possibly use my Nightfighting rifle due to my zeroed DBAL being on it where I might use the visible laser.

motor vehicle travel in SHTF . When absolutely neccessary (and if possible w/ roads/fuel issues) traveling by road to for example say the only dentist in the area with my barter items in the truck.. since you are not walking you can carry a lot more...more ammo, more water... all the good idea stuff now imposes little or no penalty.... and since you are very exposed in a vehicle.. IMO armor/helmet would be a must...

All this is not written in stone but just food for the thought I just wrote down off-the-cuff and is meant to illustrate the kind of thinking on how your mission analysis should tailor your load out especially as someone not tied to military SOPs.
Everything you carry must earn it's weight/bulk in your load out, when in doubt if you havent used it in the last 3 patrols .. it probably needs to stay home next time...

Military principles are timeless and apply to any conflict situation you might be in..

SOPs for load out however are a product of the operational paradigm the military found itself in when the SOP was written.
Maybe this is stating it a bit overstrong but a near perfect overlap of a current published military or SWAT SOP with your actual operational environment would be both unlikely and merely accidental.