Not to start the "mine is better" argument...but

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

saw this on WRSA today. www.captainsjournal.com/2015/11/30/5-56x45mm-versus-7-62x39mm/

Being in medicine and having spent many years in Emergency Medicine and Pre-hospital medicine I have always taken the "forces" or Kinetic Energy into my thoughts when treating patients whether it is a motor vehicle accident, GSW, or a gymnast who "pinged" off the uneven bars. Understanding some things about the forces involved in lead to the injury may be able to help me with treatment of things that are not readily seen. Having said that, I found the above article interesting. The author included this video in his article

however he didn't use a similar video when dealing with the 7.62x39. Here is the 7.62x39 video done by Brass Fetcher, who did the one on the 5.56 in the article.


Looking at the charts in the videos by Brass Fetcher, it seems the 5.56 has a deeper penetration (about 5") when it's KE (about 460 ft-lbf) peaks where the 7.62x39 peaks at about 2" and has a KE of 540 ft-lbf. The 5.56 was a M855 which is, I believe, a 62g FMJBT, whereas the 7.62x39 that Brass Fetcher shows is a Federal 123g Power-shok soft point and the video the author referred to in the article was a Golden Bear 125g soft point.

My take from a medical side is they both will do its job. The max KE of the 5.56 round being delivered deeper I feel should cause more energy being delivered closer to vital organs. Of course, if either hits a vital organ or vessel, the outcome should be the same.

As I said, I am looking and trying to learn so any comments that help I would love to hear.

[panzer0170]

I've never seen an answer to this, so I'll put the question here because it ties in well;

So you're wearing a plate carrier. And they hit the plate carrier nice and square, and it works etc.

What sort of damage are we expecting? Bruising is a given. Cracked ribs? Anything worth actually worrying about? I've heard anecdotal evidence, but I've heard some fucking WILD anecdotal evidence that I've seen proof for, but it tends to be quite fantastic scenarios. I'm talking say 50 yards, straight shoot on a standing torso to the plate. What effect am I going to have PHYSICALLY (psychologically is a whole other matter, especially if you're remotely worried about any kind of extremist...)

[waffenmacht]

The problem with tests like these are the HUGE variables found, especially with 5.56 ammo. Barrel length can greatly change how the round reacts, as can distance, bullet type, and powder charge. Plus we are shooting ballistic gel, which is not living tissue (although I know from a testing perspective its the best we have). You ARE correct in your assessment that both will do their job... both kill, effectively, on a daily basis.

Punching holes in someone's body will never yield positive results for the recipient.

[waffenmacht]

Panzer, this is somewhat relevant to your question:

[panzer0170]

Oooh. Time to go watch!

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

I have never seen that video. I have seen and taken care of two LEOs that I can recall that were shot while wearing BA. They "walked away" but were brought to the hospital. IIRC, as its been several years ago, one was released with a rib fracture, the other one was admitted due to a lung contusion. Not sure how long he was in the hospital as once he leaves the ER he is followed by other providers. Cannot recall the calibers.

But, let's just take a rib fracture in a SHTF event. Livable, yes, but recovery will take some time and physical exertion will be limited. Your tribe will be down a productive person for probably a minimum of 4-6 weeks. Secondary events will need to be monitored for closely, especially a pneumonia from not taking deep breaths. A rib fracture is painful which the patient has a tendency to "splint" his rib by not breathing deep. Worse case would be a cardiac contusion where you could have arrhythmias, and a decrease in cardiac contraction strength which could/would lead to a perfusion issue. Death would be possible (not necessarily probable though) in this case.

Sorry if I show my enthusiasm for stuff like this, but this is what I have been doing a loooong time and I am still learning the Art of Medicine.

[matt]

I am not saying that 7.62x39 can't be an effective round but its mythical properties (among Americans at least) seem to be attributed to it because it is .30 caliber which among certain groups of people is basically magical. In general, it seems to me that 5.56 is superior to the 7.62 in terms of terminal performance and exterior ballistics.

Regardless of the caliber that you choose, tests like this do a good job of highlighting the importance of placement and projectile selection so you can maximize whatever you are working with.

[winter]

Dec 4, 2015 14:27:39 GMT -5 matt said:

Regardless of the caliber that you choose, tests like this do a good job of highlighting the importance of placement and projectile selection so you can maximize whatever you are working with.

This may be a bit off topic.

Do most of you folks stock ammo other than FMJ for long term scenarios?

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

winter, to be honest for my AR MBR I will buy what I can get and/or one I can get a better price on, which so far has been the XM193. For AK I have wolf FMJ and HP.

Here is my theory, in a SHTF event either will kill if you hit your target and placement. Depending on placement maybe immediately, but without proper medical care a round in the gut is a death sentence sooner or later no matter the caliber, or type of bullet. You spill the intestines out into the abdominal cavity, ugly things will happen. An extremity wound will certainly cause damage from the KE delivered. Yawing or mushrooming will cause further damage.

My thoughts are different for my self defense round I carry in my pistol in a non-SHTF world. It is JHP as I want the mushrooming effect for more of a stopping power. Post SHTF, again it doesn't matter to me, although maybe it should for the same reason, up close stopping power.

[matt]

This is relevant: tacmedaustralia.com.au/why-id-rather-be-shot-with-an-ak47-than-an-m4/

[Erick]

That Tacmed article is a home run!

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

That was the article that the original article quoted. Very good insights he has.

[eddiewouldclearhot]

the new M855A1 round is even nastier:



not sure about the mini compression explosion in an actual combatant, but its pretty devestating none the less.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Okay, that will leave a mark!