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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 24, 2015 10:37:01 GMT -5
I have heard the "steel will take more hits" argument MANY MANY times and I still maintain that it is wishful thinking to believe that all hits will land nicely into that little 10x12 section of your chest. If you are taking that many rounds you need to address your tactics NOT your armor. Contrary to popularly held beliefs modern ceramics are not a single hit proposition. Granted I will give you that after 6 hits ceramics are a no go however if you are taking that much accurate incoming fire you better plan on stocking a huge amount of medical supplies and training for your people and/or have access to a modern medical facility and staff. Because one 556 to the shoulder without said advanced medical care has a very good chance of killing you just as dead as a hit to center mass. The same applies to ceramics but ceramics aren't marketed using the multiple encounter/strike scenario. Agreed we don't have the advantage of a supply chain to replace our ceramic based armor... we also don't have medical evac to get us to care within the "golden hour". Nor do most of us even stock or know how to use IV supplies. Applying a tourniquet is great to stop the leaking but then what??? How many people here know how to debride a wound channel or even stock IV antibiotics? Sure you can live after taking a rifle round through the leg, it happened in the civil war but your chances of developing and dying from sepsis is pretty damn high. My mindset is that lighter is better.. ALMOST ALWAYS... again just my opinion, doesnt mean im right.. (I am right though ;-)
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 24, 2015 11:43:50 GMT -5
You guys are getting way wrapped around the axle and going off the rails, and missing one of the main points of what I was originally saying. As far as taking all these hits.... that's a perfect example of getting wrapped around the axle. After one single hit to a ceramic, are you willing to bet your life (of that of a loved one) that it will still stop one more? Especially a lucky one in the same general place? That's all it takes. 1 round. Not dozens. Not hundreds. 1. Of course extremity hits are possible, and probably likely. If that's your main focus, then why bother with armor at all (serious question)? That's kind of like saying, well, I'll probably get killed in the first 6 weeks of an event, so I'm not going to bother storing any more food/water than a couple of months worth. As far as weight, my ceramics weigh 7.5 lbs. AR500 III+ steel plates weigh 8 lbs. That's a grand total of .5 lb difference. I don't think that I'm going to really be able to tell a difference between the two while sitting in an L/OP, or standing guard in my living room, etc... Back to the original point of the video. Armor, for our purposes, is not for running around in the woods with, or on long foot/security patrols, etc... Its for manning static locations. Steel also gives you one other benefit. After you do take that femoral/shoulder/gut hit, someone else in your group/family can still use your armor. So steel will take more hits, absolutely no question there. Steel can be had that weighs almost exactly the same as ceramic so the weigh issue is negligible. Steel can be handed down/passed on without worry of its integrity if it has taken a hit.
I say all that and I currently have and use ceramic plates.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 24, 2015 14:19:16 GMT -5
You guys are getting way wrapped around the axle and going off the rails, and missing one of the main points of what I was originally saying. As far as taking all these hits.... that's a perfect example of getting wrapped around the axle. After one single hit to a ceramic, are you willing to bet your life (of that of a loved one) that it will still stop one more? Especially a lucky one in the same general place? That's all it takes. 1 round. Not dozens. Not hundreds. 1. Of course extremity hits are possible, and probably likely. If that's your main focus, then why bother with armor at all ( serious question)? That's kind of like saying, well, I'll probably get killed in the first 6 weeks of an event, so I'm not going to bother storing any more food/water than a couple of months worth. As far as weight, my ceramics weigh 7.5 lbs. AR500 III+ steel plates weigh 8 lbs. That's a grand total of .5 lb difference. I don't think that I'm going to really be able to tell a difference between the two while sitting in an L/OP, or standing guard in my living room, etc... Back to the original point of the video. Armor, for our purposes, is not for running around in the woods with, or on long foot/security patrols, etc... Its for manning static locations. Steel also gives you one other benefit. After you do take that femoral/shoulder/gut hit, someone else in your group/family can still use your armor. So steel will take more hits, absolutely no question there. Steel can be had that weighs almost exactly the same as ceramic so the weigh issue is negligible. Steel can be handed down/passed on without worry of its integrity if it has taken a hit. I say all that and I currently have and use ceramic plates. Answer to your bold/italic'd bit; I probably wouldn't, insofar as SHTF/WROL. As far as I am concerned I would BUY and I would TRAIN in plates, but for 2 reasons; People on ranges can be dumb even if they're smart, and whilst the grid is up and medical care is available I would like every opportunity of making it home every day. If I can do it in plates, I can do it out of plates. The opposite is not true. Phys is important, and this is another GOOD tool to help with that. Guys going on tour would spend 6 months prior to going wearing body armour all day every day; Just to get used to carrying the extra weight and building muscle BEFORE they go fighting, rather than during. Definitely a good choice. If I were using it in a static location? I agree that armour is valid, for an Armed Citizen. But that then leads me on to the next concern; How valid REALLY is a static location for an Armed Citizen? That's going to depend entirely on the threat, of course. But if it's a regular military a static position is going to get you killed. ESPECIALLY if it's a remotely modern western military with anything like ISTAR. They're going to wrap you up without even putting boots in rifle range. What is the local populace like? Do you live in an area where you'd get a lot of people on side and quickly, and therefore have the assets to defend a static location? How? For how long? All assumptions thus far for me are based on me, or me +1 as a 'fighting force'. As a single AC, or as part of a pair I can't think of a scenario where I am going to defend a static location rather than want to maneouvre to either A) Run away. or B) Gain some sort of tactical advantage. Because unless I have some serious fortifications, all I'm doing is boxing myself in and providing the FIX aspect of FIND, FIX, DESTROY the enemy.
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 24, 2015 15:43:54 GMT -5
I think the real weight savings benefit of ceramics over steel, is when it comes to level III/III+ protection. Its just over half the weight for a III+ ceramic plate, compared to a III+ steel plate, at least with the case of GGG's offering. I don't know if the level IV capability with some ceramic plates, is going to net much more of a benefit compared to steel, since they are very comparable in price and weight, and given the treat profiles which are the most likely any of us would be facing. At that point, the "durability" argument starts to gain more traction in favor of steel. At the III/III+ level of protection, the only real drawback of ceramics versus steel, to me at least, is the higher price.
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 24, 2015 17:05:30 GMT -5
You guys are getting way wrapped around the axle and going off the rails, and missing one of the main points of what I was originally saying. As far as taking all these hits.... that's a perfect example of getting wrapped around the axle. After one single hit to a ceramic, are you willing to bet your life (of that of a loved one) that it will still stop one more? Especially a lucky one in the same general place? That's all it takes. 1 round. Not dozens. Not hundreds. 1. Of course extremity hits are possible, and probably likely. If that's your main focus, then why bother with armor at all ( serious question)? That's kind of like saying, well, I'll probably get killed in the first 6 weeks of an event, so I'm not going to bother storing any more food/water than a couple of months worth. As far as weight, my ceramics weigh 7.5 lbs. AR500 III+ steel plates weigh 8 lbs. That's a grand total of .5 lb difference. I don't think that I'm going to really be able to tell a difference between the two while sitting in an L/OP, or standing guard in my living room, etc... Back to the original point of the video. Armor, for our purposes, is not for running around in the woods with, or on long foot/security patrols, etc... Its for manning static locations. Steel also gives you one other benefit. After you do take that femoral/shoulder/gut hit, someone else in your group/family can still use your armor. So steel will take more hits, absolutely no question there. Steel can be had that weighs almost exactly the same as ceramic so the weigh issue is negligible. Steel can be handed down/passed on without worry of its integrity if it has taken a hit. I say all that and I currently have and use ceramic plates. Answer to your bold/italic'd bit; I probably wouldn't, insofar as SHTF/WROL. As far as I am concerned I would BUY and I would TRAIN in plates, but for 2 reasons; People on ranges can be dumb even if they're smart, and whilst the grid is up and medical care is available I would like every opportunity of making it home every day. Its not that bad at most ranges, but still, in that context, that's completely valid. Again, for a military context, completely valid. Again, context.... Personally, I think the military opponent is at the bottom of the list. Make no mistake, its on the list, just at the bottom. Against that threat, yeah, of course, only real option for most is to try and get out of dodge and evade. At the top of the list for me, is the general looting rioting hordes and other goblins of society run amuck. Against that threat, defending your home/location where you have shelter, and all of your stored supplies, is critical, and completely doable. The key repetitive word here being.....context. We have to give context to these things because blanket statements when it comes to survival and preparedness, just don't work, and can honestly be dangerous/detrimental to the lesser informed and/or someone new to these things that's just getting started.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 25, 2015 4:38:13 GMT -5
I completely agree it's not bad at most ranges, especially square ones. Moreso I'm thinking if you're taking part in fire and maneouvre with a bunch of people you've never met before they haven't necessarily DONE an ACMT, or Live fire & movement drills before. They may not be that same grizzled former or current soldier some of us are, and some of them may be doing it because it's cool, and those people tend to take things like safety a little bit less seriously.
As you say, context is everything. I forget that even though I've said WHY and my where from before, it's not always the case that everyone has read that response, and it not being included in this one might change peoples perspective of it.
Amusingly, having read through that thing I sent you the other day, I'm very much looking at belt-fed weapons and going 'Nope!' right up to Platoon level, where 1 or 2 might be appropriate. But that's a whole other thread.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Jul 25, 2015 5:12:38 GMT -5
I think its mostly mission /scenario dependent on what you choose. Armor at a static location is wise vs lugging it thru the woods on a patrol. But even "non military "can fix that location if they do not scatter after the first rounds go out. I guess you can break it down even more on how sustainable your location really is?.
As AC...we wont have a logistics train....if it goes insurgency /revolution /CW2 there will be some but not at 1st. So we need to really think about our gear choices and what we plan to do with that gear.
Me I wish I had some cheapo plates for the kid/wife...as more protective measures vs being in direct fire. Sides that...speed /agility /conservation of energy will be key in my area and how I see folks operating in it. That's a whole different topic.....how well would armored guys do on foot with out the hmmv 100 yards back handing out dasanis and IV cocktails.? Chopter drops.. Its 105-110+ index ...89-95f and 80-99% humidity .....normally here right now.
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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 25, 2015 9:13:02 GMT -5
I completely agree it's not bad at most ranges, especially square ones. Moreso I'm thinking if you're taking part in fire and maneouvre with a bunch of people you've never met before they haven't necessarily DONE an ACMT, or Live fire & movement drills before. They may not be that same grizzled former or current soldier some of us are, and some of them may be doing it because it's cool, and those people tend to take things like safety a little bit less seriously. As you say, context is everything. I forget that even though I've said WHY and my where from before, it's not always the case that everyone has read that response, and it not being included in this one might change peoples perspective of it. Amusingly, having read through that thing I sent you the other day, I'm very much looking at belt-fed weapons and going 'Nope!' right up to Platoon level, where 1 or 2 might be appropriate. But that's a whole other thread. I'm still re-reading that... some good/interesting info in there.
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Post by DeadeyeD on Jul 26, 2015 11:06:51 GMT -5
Hawkeye made a big point that goes my original premise. It's not that ceramic will take more than one hit, it's will you be able to trust it. There's a reason why the mil x-rays all plates every year now. It's because just dropping them can make them ineffective. That's something that can't be said about steel by any stretch of the imagination. I don't use body armor. I have it, and have limited plans for it's use, but I don't use it for the most part, because it slows me down to an unacceptable level, for the protection it supply's.
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Jul 26, 2015 17:01:23 GMT -5
Isn't there some big deal study which showed the number one cause of deaths for coalition troops in the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, was exsanguination as a result of extremity blood loss? Behind that a pneumothorax, and an airway obstruction via having one's face smashed-in? Hence the wide-spread implementation of IFAKs equipped with TQs, decomp needles, and nasal airway tubes? Granted, most of that was the result of shrapnel and debris propelled by IED blasts, so far as I'm aware, but those injuries, aside from the pneumothoraces (which could still be caused if a round slips between plates) are to areas which aren't protected by any armor, soft or hard. So, my point is, if you can keep the stuff inside of you functioning, and take a hit to somewhere else, albeit still potentially life-threatening, but somewhere on you person where it wouldn't be immediately life-threatening and thus allowing for a larger window for aid and evac to be performed, then why not? you're right.... its because of the widespread use of body armor that those were the number one killers, mostly due to blast. without body armor those statistics would be much different.
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 26, 2015 23:22:56 GMT -5
Mostly blast, right! I was pulling this from the depths of memory. Thanks.
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