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Post by Hawkeye on Jul 13, 2015 8:29:08 GMT -5
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 13, 2015 13:07:58 GMT -5
Another great philosophy video for the A.C.
What are your thoughts on side armor? Especially if running steel, side plates may just be those few extra pounds that make the rig unbearable, for some. I would think having at least side soft armor would be a good idea.
What do you think of the plastic armor plates, like those made UHMWPE? They are quite expensive, about 1.25-1.50 times as much as ceramic, and 3 times as much, easy, as steel, but the weight savings is incredible. Along with having high durability and even some floating, the second point being a plus if you live around a lot of bodies of water, even if you aren't conduction maritime "operations".
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 13, 2015 13:14:37 GMT -5
Fiber plates or compressed polyethylene will not stop the 556 green tip. Seeing as how that's the most prolific round out there they are a non starter.. IMO
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 14, 2015 3:24:12 GMT -5
Fiber plates or compressed polyethylene will not stop the 556 green tip. Seeing as how that's the most prolific round out there they are a non starter.. IMO Vids? Studies, please? |
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 14, 2015 7:41:56 GMT -5
Don't need a study.. just read the specs.. nij level 3 DOES NOT cover m855 or Ss109 which ever spec you prefer. A manufacturer can claim level 3 status and not stop said round. Level 3 is rated for 7.62 m80 fmj. unless stated and PROVEN by the manufacturer NO all poly plates will stop m855. If they did I would own a few sets. The mild steel core of the 855 cuts right through.
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 14, 2015 7:46:56 GMT -5
Our just Google. Will dkx armor stop m855... consensus. ...not a chance in hell...
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Post by judomayhem on Jul 14, 2015 15:38:04 GMT -5
Steel side plates don't weigh that much, and if riding in a vehicle make all kinds of sense. As does a helmet, but that's another subject.
I would probably remove my side plates if doing a neighborhood foot patrol, or just wearing my vest around home.
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 15, 2015 0:15:25 GMT -5
Our just Google. Will dkx armor stop m855... consensus. ...not a chance in hell... Been doin' that today, and yeah, screw those kinds of plates.  The technology is not there, yet?  I'm currently eyeing Grey Ghost Gear's Level IV Stand Alone plates. For me, the cost-to-threat profile coverage ratio is the big deal-maker, and weight being just at, or even slightly below that of steel, helps as well. A point I read someone else bring up, was a question to how well steel plates with an anti-spall coating protect against an angled shot. I haven't seen any angled shot testing on any plates, but the idea of a round ricocheting off of the plate, fragmenting, and then going into the inside of my arm or throat doesn't sound appealing.  Here's at least one, very recent, psuedo-scientific review of them: www.breachbangclear.com/grey-ghost-gear-review-armor/ |
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 15, 2015 13:58:10 GMT -5
There are good ceramic plates that are fairly light by comparison to steel. Granted they will only take 6 hits from a 308 but I can deal with that when you consider they weigh 5.5 lbs as compared to 9ish for coated AR500. Yes they are more expensive I sold level 3 multistrikes for 375$ a set and level 4 for $450 a set at gun shows. Its up to the buyer to decide though,, is the weight savings worth the cost difference?? Im not a huge believer in the durability argument for steel plates because I feel that if you are getting into that many gun fights your chances of taking hits in other non armored areas are pretty damn high and at that point you are going to need advanced medical care so for many that becomes a life threatening injury. Though I understand the argument of yeah but im still in the fight my though process is If you are taking soo many rounds that the durability of steel is a real positive then odds arent in your favor anyways and your going to be taking rounds to extremities. Plates cover a small area percentage wise and every time you take fire you are rolling the dice. Is the 8+ pounds of additional weight in steel a issue for you or no??? For me it is because that 8 pounds is a gallon of water or extra ammo. Im not a tank im smaller stature and pounds add up fast so ill spend more to shave that 8 pounds but thats just me.. YMMV...
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 15, 2015 16:52:12 GMT -5
To weigh in with my rather simple, single point argument;
The highest of high speed operators that I know of, when doing anything that didn't involve them getting carried to an objective and doorkicking, short distance assault, carried home? All CHOSE, and had cleared by their command, to ditch armour.
That's ceramic L4 plates. The 2 people I know of them that got shot? 1 bloke took a round in the arm, the other took a round in the femoral artery (didn't die, because his mates were switched on & lucky).
Carrying plates would have just slowed them down.
I'm pretty sure I've also made the point before that statistically the number of people shot in the plates vs people shot in the thighs, arms, face etc? minimal. In a lot of ways, I think plates and plate carriers are a fucking placebo to make people feel protected AND make the govt look like they are protecting the troops.
SWAT ops? No idea. But SWAT =/= AC. Light Infantry- = AC.
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 15, 2015 20:39:54 GMT -5
Isn't there some big deal study which showed the number one cause of deaths for coalition troops in the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, was exsanguination as a result of extremity blood loss? Behind that a pneumothorax, and an airway obstruction via having one's face smashed-in? Hence the wide-spread implementation of IFAKs equipped with TQs, decomp needles, and nasal airway tubes? Granted, most of that was the result of shrapnel and debris propelled by IED blasts, so far as I'm aware, but those injuries, aside from the pneumothoraces (which could still be caused if a round slips between plates) are to areas which aren't protected by any armor, soft or hard. So, my point is, if you can keep the stuff inside of you functioning, and take a hit to somewhere else, albeit still potentially life-threatening, but somewhere on you person where it wouldn't be immediately life-threatening and thus allowing for a larger window for aid and evac to be performed, then why not? Yeah, high-speed operators may choose to ditch plates when they don't feel like carrying the extra weight, or if a particular mission rules them imprudent, but I'm not one of those guys. They're paid to train, and have nearly everything they need to do their jobs provided for them, aside from being naturally talented and fortunate to be in the positions they are. Along with having support personnel to drive, drop, or ship them to where ever. I'm probably just sounding like a whiner, but my circumstances simply don't allow for me to be able to make that kind of a commitment, like the undertone I perceive which is occurring in the AC community, that being one has to act like as though we're awaiting a military occupation to occur yesterday. I have obligations beyond my control, and don't want prepping to become my life. The subject of prepping for which I am, is that of civil unrest as a result of political manipulation, or a short-term, post-disaster WROL scenario. In those circumstances, the need for me to be jocked-up for real, is likely only to be for a relatively limited duration and within a limited AO. Therefore, armor makes sense for me, even if its only to present the image of me being someone with whom you do not fuck, thus making the ne'er do wells move along to some place else. Not everyone can afford the top-of-the-line plates, the cost for one be more than the cost for two the "lower" tier plates. If anything, the heavier plates would be better for training with, while the funds are being saved for the lighter plates which proved nearly the same level of protection. (I'm kind of using the GGG plates as my standard of measurement as of right now.) |
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 15, 2015 21:23:33 GMT -5
OMNI.. I hear what you are saying and in part I agree with some of it and what I say is my opinion only and is not meant to offend please don't think im attacking you because nothing could be further from the truth. Im simply going to expound on input I have had from hundreds of buying customers and thousands of lookers.. Again this is my opinion and my opinion only and I mean no offense to ANY on the board.. I have found that people buy steel because it is cheap.... ok thats a given part two of that statement will cause some pushback. I think that people come up with reasons to justify the purchase.. to outweigh the fact that steel is super heavy and only really useable in level 3 rating(ever tried to wear level 4 AR500... LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL,, just sayin)now don't get me wrong.. I don't think steel is all bad I just think that the sellers of steel have come up with some very creative marketing hype to counteract the real problems with steel... and the solution was.. steel can take hundreds of hits and in the PAW or WROL world you cant get resupply. On the surface this argument makes some sense. However, when we look at it from a multi faceted threat approach we realize that only in the perfect world of the steel salesman are all the rounds fired at me hitting that 10x12 section of my chest. The salesman knows that his plates are woefully heavy compared to modern ceramic composites so what to do? DEMONIZE CERAMICS of course. Ive heard it all "would you trust your life to grandmas dinner plates" or "why would I trust my life to something that breaks if I drop it?, imagine what a bullet will do!)Never mind that AL203(Alumina, aluminum ceramic composite) and Boron Carbide are two of the hardest man made materials on earth, several magnitudes harder than AR500 and contrary to early myths they dont shatter when you drop them. Hell modern plates you just about have to strike on the edge with a friggin axe to damage them. But If people learned the truth about modern ceramic variations then it would tarnish the sterling reputation of steel... So like I said my opinion may ruffle feathers and no offense was intended. If you buy steel because its affordable,, thats awesome but In my humble opinion the perceived benefits of steel just dont add up. Then again I have been wrong before and I just may be now... If you buy armor because you want a insurance policy and you don't believe you will ever need it then saving cash on steel is a valid approach. I would just caution though.... its similar to buying the cheapest food storage you can find because you dont honestly think you will ever use it.. I get having to stretch the dollar, Im not rich hell some months I wonder where the money is coming from and the choice you make is your own and not for me or anyone else to demonize you for.. |
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 15, 2015 21:48:06 GMT -5
Oh, no, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm pretty sure I have the lowest level of credibility of anyone on here, who is at least as active in the discussions as I am, but I need to question statements and opinions, in order for me to understand them. Its just how I learn, much to the consternation of some former instructors of mine...
Yeah, I've never understood that argument, of ceramic plates being so brittle. I doesn't make any sense. If they were, then logistically, they wouldn't be viable, as they would need to be constantly replaced. I'm getting to the point to where good plates (which don't double as boat anchors, and cover a threat profile for everything which can reasonably be expected) are going to be one of those "big" purchases we make, like buying a rifle. I've also resolved not to buy any more pouches for my currently empty plate carrier, until I get plates for it.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323 
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Post by protus on Jul 16, 2015 13:23:48 GMT -5
LOL omni I'm less credible than you...trust me...LOL
Weight is a major concern on all gear...it should be more so to the AC....and more so to those ACs who aren't young anymore. Pride and ego aside its how you have to really look at your kit and the purchases. In the future.
Heck 5 years ago...40lb Ruck...12lb rifle and 38lbs of fighting kit...all day in the awesome southeastern summer....not an issue!
ask me to do it today and ill laugh...things change fast..physically and mission wise (realizing your not a one man army) .there's a reason I went with UW gear as kit.
Off track sorry but I've put off armor fir a while because of weight vs cost vs mission.....and while steel gets my eyes price wise I wont buy it because of weight.
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 16, 2015 13:36:41 GMT -5
Yeah .. Im gonna quote you now protus from our conversation yesterday just before I went for my old man walk n run... "now go put on your kit, do a bunch of ups n downs then give me a 30 min 3 mile in that kit. Im fat and broken so if you can't do it your a pussy" thats accurate and oohh soo MOTO.....
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The technology is not there, yet? 
