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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 16, 2015 17:26:31 GMT -5
Isn't there some big deal study which showed the number one cause of deaths for coalition troops in the operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, was exsanguination as a result of extremity blood loss? Behind that a pneumothorax, and an airway obstruction via having one's face smashed-in? Hence the wide-spread implementation of IFAKs equipped with TQs, decomp needles, and nasal airway tubes? Granted, most of that was the result of shrapnel and debris propelled by IED blasts, so far as I'm aware, but those injuries, aside from the pneumothoraces (which could still be caused if a round slips between plates) are to areas which aren't protected by any armor, soft or hard. So, my point is, if you can keep the stuff inside of you functioning, and take a hit to somewhere else, albeit still potentially life-threatening, but somewhere on you person where it wouldn't be immediately life-threatening and thus allowing for a larger window for aid and evac to be performed, then why not? Yeah, high-speed operators may choose to ditch plates when they don't feel like carrying the extra weight, or if a particular mission rules them imprudent, but I'm not one of those guys. They're paid to train, and have nearly everything they need to do their jobs provided for them, aside from being naturally talented and fortunate to be in the positions they are. Along with having support personnel to drive, drop, or ship them to where ever. I'm probably just sounding like a whiner, but my circumstances simply don't allow for me to be able to make that kind of a commitment, like the undertone I perceive which is occurring in the AC community, that being one has to act like as though we're awaiting a military occupation to occur yesterday. I have obligations beyond my control, and don't want prepping to become my life. The subject of prepping for which I am, is that of civil unrest as a result of political manipulation, or a short-term, post-disaster WROL scenario. In those circumstances, the need for me to be jocked-up for real, is likely only to be for a relatively limited duration and within a limited AO. Therefore, armor makes sense for me, even if its only to present the image of me being someone with whom you do not fuck, thus making the ne'er do wells move along to some place else. Not everyone can afford the top-of-the-line plates, the cost for one be more than the cost for two the "lower" tier plates. If anything, the heavier plates would be better for training with, while the funds are being saved for the lighter plates which proved nearly the same level of protection. (I'm kind of using the GGG plates as my standard of measurement as of right now.) You make some good points. But in a scenario where I have no medical support to hand, keeping my bits inside is only going to prolong my time spent dying. If I am wearing plates it is because they are going to STOP a round, not hold me together. Our old ECBA use to do that, and we wore it because we had to, but it was, everyone accepted, a comfort blanket for the people who write policy. If it has a chance of providing some actual protection, good. The only reason in my mind to get Steel over Ceramic is cost. If Steel & Multi-hit were better for some reason we'd be giving it to troops, but we're not. The honest reason everyone gets Steel is because it's cheaper. Anything else is attributing benefit where it doesn't exist. Need to be able to take 100 rounds over 50 contacts? Get more plates. Avoid fighting. The key to winning as many fights as possible is to avoid as many as possible; Then you pick the ones you can win, hopefully. In essence, if your plates aren't there to protect because you're doorkicking OR you're static? Plates are just weights.
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Post by Erick on Jul 16, 2015 18:55:30 GMT -5
To weigh in with my rather simple, single point argument; The highest of high speed operators that I know of, when doing anything that didn't involve them getting carried to an objective and doorkicking, short distance assault, carried home? All CHOSE, and had cleared by their command, to ditch armour. That's ceramic L4 plates. The 2 people I know of them that got shot? 1 bloke took a round in the arm, the other took a round in the femoral artery (didn't die, because his mates were switched on & lucky). Carrying plates would have just slowed them down. I'm pretty sure I've also made the point before that statistically the number of people shot in the plates vs people shot in the thighs, arms, face etc? minimal. In a lot of ways, I think plates and plate carriers are a fucking placebo to make people feel protected AND make the govt look like they are protecting the troops. SWAT ops? No idea. But SWAT =/= AC. Light Infantry- = AC. As usual I find myself in violent agreement w/ Panzer. (except not sure I understand the last line???) The only good slice of application I can imagine for plates will be in static defense and manning a checkpoint leading up to a retreat. In all other situations they don't earn their cost (cost= less agility, more exhaustion, lower total speed, greater chance of injury due to greater load on joints/tendons, HEAT buildup under the plates etc etc) The reasons they become popular in the GWOT is like Panzer said and also their paradigm is different as most troops act as paramilitary police , manning checkpoints, riding in vehicles and in those situations weight is irrelevant and protection is important. In a CUTT environment though... no plates unless static defense or checkpoint.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Jul 16, 2015 20:03:05 GMT -5
Yeah .. Im gonna quote you now protus from our conversation yesterday just before I went for my old man walk n run... "now go put on your kit, do a bunch of ups n downs then give me a 30 min 3 mile in that kit. Im fat and broken so if you can't do it your a pussy" thats accurate and oohh soo MOTO..... It was a 10 min mile for you to try......dont over exaggerate or youll get three or more text 5am est. But yeah over all...id still call you a pussy lmao.
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 16, 2015 20:42:18 GMT -5
Now your just lying.......
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 17, 2015 4:18:42 GMT -5
But in a scenario where I have no medical support to hand, keeping my bits inside is only going to prolong my time spent dying. If I am wearing plates it is because they are going to STOP a round, not hold me together. Our old ECBA use to do that, and we wore it because we had to, but it was, everyone accepted, a comfort blanket for the people who write policy. If it has a chance of providing some actual protection, good. The only reason in my mind to get Steel over Ceramic is cost. If Steel & Multi-hit were better for some reason we'd be giving it to troops, but we're not. The honest reason everyone gets Steel is because it's cheaper. Anything else is attributing benefit where it doesn't exist. Need to be able to take 100 rounds over 50 contacts? Get more plates. Avoid fighting. The key to winning as many fights as possible is to avoid as many as possible; Then you pick the ones you can win, hopefully. In essence, if your plates aren't there to protect because you're doorkicking OR you're static? Plates are just weights. Time spent dyin', is time spent not bein' dead. What's a "ECBA"? I'm coming full circle on the whole steel vs. ceramic plate debate, and I'm more and more in favor of the ceramics. Cost savings shouldn't terribly factor into purchasing items which are intended to prevent yourself from being ventilated. The weight issue rules steel out, out right, because they weigh some much, you'd likely experience the drag of them much sooner. I still want to see angled shots on steel body armor plates. I don't think they would be favorable, even with fancy-dancy coatings. Even if they were, though, the steel plates would be pushing twice the weight of ceramics. Yeah, quality ceramics are pricey by comparison, but you know what else was...? Your rifle.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 17, 2015 15:21:40 GMT -5
SWAT ops? No idea. But SWAT =/= AC. Light Infantry- = AC. As usual I find myself in violent agreement w/ Panzer. (except not sure I understand the last line???) That last line explained, now I realise it's in full on shorthand: My experience is purely of COIN and 'Big War' fighting. I haven't got a clue about SWAT operations, and I get that they need plates - But they generally drive to an incident, soak for ages till they HAVE to go doorkicking, and then fight HARD and CLOSE for a very short period of time. For that reason SWAT =/= (Does not equal) Armed Citizen, and the sort of tactics that we need to be adopting and adapting are Light Infantry ones, not SWAT or Airmobile or Armoured Infantry.
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 17, 2015 15:27:15 GMT -5
But in a scenario where I have no medical support to hand, keeping my bits inside is only going to prolong my time spent dying. If I am wearing plates it is because they are going to STOP a round, not hold me together. Our old ECBA use to do that, and we wore it because we had to, but it was, everyone accepted, a comfort blanket for the people who write policy. If it has a chance of providing some actual protection, good. The only reason in my mind to get Steel over Ceramic is cost. If Steel & Multi-hit were better for some reason we'd be giving it to troops, but we're not. The honest reason everyone gets Steel is because it's cheaper. Anything else is attributing benefit where it doesn't exist. Need to be able to take 100 rounds over 50 contacts? Get more plates. Avoid fighting. The key to winning as many fights as possible is to avoid as many as possible; Then you pick the ones you can win, hopefully. In essence, if your plates aren't there to protect because you're doorkicking OR you're static? Plates are just weights. Time spent dyin', is time spent not bein' dead. What's a "ECBA"? I'm coming full circle on the whole steel vs. ceramic plate debate, and I'm more and more in favor of the ceramics. Cost savings shouldn't terribly factor into purchasing items which are intended to prevent yourself from being ventilated. The weight issue rules steel out, out right, because they weigh some much, you'd likely experience the drag of them much sooner. I still want to see angled shots on steel body armor plates. I don't think they would be favorable, even with fancy-dancy coatings. Even if they were, though, the steel plates would be pushing twice the weight of ceramics. Yeah, quality ceramics are pricey by comparison, but you know what else was...? Your rifle. I admit time spent dying is time not being dead... But I'm not sold being alive is always the best result - We put animals down that are suffering that we know we can't help. Would you want to survive, knowing that you're going to die of Gangrene or something? ECBA is 'Enhance Combat Body Armour' < It's a peice of shit frag vest that carries like 6x8 plates. It's what was issued 80's/90's, against IRA threats... Quite honestly, it didn't do much good - It saved a few people from frag damage, but I know of NO instances where it helped save lives from gunfire. And that was AC w/o body armour facing up against a well supplied military, close to home, with armour. Granted it wasn't great, but 'holding bits in' really isn't of any use.
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Post by Erick on Jul 17, 2015 18:01:57 GMT -5
As usual I find myself in violent agreement w/ Panzer. (except not sure I understand the last line???) That last line explained, now I realise it's in full on shorthand: My experience is purely of COIN and 'Big War' fighting. I haven't got a clue about SWAT operations, and I get that they need plates - But they generally drive to an incident, soak for ages till they HAVE to go doorkicking, and then fight HARD and CLOSE for a very short period of time. For that reason SWAT =/= (Does not equal) Armed Citizen, and the sort of tactics that we need to be adopting and adapting are Light Infantry ones, not SWAT or Airmobile or Armoured Infantry. Agreed
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Post by panzer0170 on Jul 17, 2015 18:59:36 GMT -5
It sometimes helps to look at other examples; Think about vehicles. Protection, Mobility, Firepower triangle applies. I would personally always add RANGE and SPEED in the place of mobility. You can only really manage two at best, but often you have to pick one. Now let us examine the 3(4) parts; Speed - This is something you can control, and something that is important. If you can't outdistance yourself from a problem, you better be able to solve it. Be that a firefight, be it an animal, be it a medical issue and requirement to get somewhere at speed. Range - The flipside of the coin. Speed and range are integral. You can go forever at a slow-medium place, or you can power somewhere close fast. Range is important because it also implies endurance. You might not go more than 1-2 miles from a 'base', but you might spend all day out looking for food, but in a hostile environment. Protection - In the grand scheme of things, how much of an advantage does armour provide? Will it protect you from bear? From Gator? From drowning? From disease? From fatigue? From dehydration? From Malnutrition?If we add all of these up, is armour LOGICALLY a benefit or a curse? The odds waver towards not wearing armour, assuming you want speed/range. Firepower - This has a similar problem to Protection, and links back to the ammo/mag count thread. You can carry all the ammo in the world, but if you can only go a mile before you're knackered... Now, let us include a context; Static defence?Well. Speed and range aren't really an issue, so long as you can adequately cover the area you intend to defend without ill effects; it's all about firepower and protection. Patrolling?Well; Speed and range are the KEY issue, as are fatigue, dehydration and everything else. Everything is risk/reward based, but for long term survival RISK is a bad choice, to be taken where it is needed, and not because the reward is high. I might be preaching to the choir, or I might be talking horse shit. I welcome other opinions, viewpoints etc, but only if you can back them up with some logic, maths, or prior evidence
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Post by Erick on Jul 17, 2015 20:13:40 GMT -5
Panzer did a very good cut at a proper analysis. Discuss
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Post by omnivorous on Jul 18, 2015 3:01:15 GMT -5
ECBA is 'Enhance Combat Body Armour' < It's a peice of shit frag vest that carries like 6x8 plates. It's what was issued 80's/90's, against IRA threats... Quite honestly, it didn't do much good - It saved a few people from frag damage, but I know of NO instances where it helped save lives from gunfire. And that was AC w/o body armour facing up against a well supplied military, close to home, with armour. Granted it wasn't great, but 'holding bits in' really isn't of any use. That sounds like a crap armor system. Was the 6x8 plate a front and/or back plate? I'm aware of the Protection/Maneuverability/Firepower spectrum, but this notion of doing continual active patrolling, on foot, over an extended area, is really only applicable to people living in rural areas. In a suburban/urban area, in a WROL-type situation, I wouldn't think one would really want to be going on foot patrols all that far from you dwelling. Armor in this context is intended to do one thing, and one thing alone, protect you from the ballistic threats presented from the hostile two-legged critters in your area. I doesn't have a purpose beyond that, obviously so. Asking if a system of any kind will be beneficial in a way far removed from its obvious or even subtle capabilities, is a waste of time. Some guys in the AC community are, or at least intend to, bug-out to their cabin in the woods, or some other kind of neo-pioneer era homestead, and live out an apocalypse, fending-off the Mad Max bondage biker gangs or blue helmets, with their buddies who live 10 miles away from them across broken terrain. That's unrealistic, in my opinion. A post-Katrina or Baltimore riots kind of scenario, is far more likely, and in either of those situations, an active defence of one's own and one's neighbors' dwelling(s), which should have all the needed supplies your family/group should require for at least a month (screw that 3 day notion) is a better alternative, in my opinion, for my current living circumstances at least, then running around the woods trying to "live off of the land".
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Post by DeadeyeD on Jul 18, 2015 19:03:02 GMT -5
On my updated equipment post masondixontactical.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/re-post-of-the-fightingsurvival-load-for-mounted-and-dismount/ which was originally written in March '14 I mentioned that the only times I see an advantage of using body armor w/ plates is Vehicle operations, Urban ops, and Fixed (static) defensive operations. I have two BA rigs (slick IBA w/ ceramic plates, and a plate carrier w/ steel), and actually keep the plate carrier next to my bed ready to go. BA is great if you are not carrying combat gear AND survival gear, but for what we will be doing, not carrying survival gear, and some extras would be foolhardy. I agree with Panzer's assessment of the "when" and "when not" of wearing body armor, and can say from experience that I'd have rather had a little more speed, and less "protection" while doing the "4 minute mile" under fire.
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Post by justanothergunnut on Jul 18, 2015 21:47:11 GMT -5
One of the only advantages we the AC enjoy over a larger "better" equipped advesary is speed and mobility. I for one agree with the statements made about mission dictating armor use. That is why I strongly disagree with steel. If speed is my main advantage why would I willingly use armor that weighs 20lbs instead of 11lbs?? Or for level 4. 30 lbs vs 14LBS..Price?? Would you use a krag jorgenson for $600 that weighs 11 pounds or a M4 for $800 that weighs 7lbs??
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Post by DeadeyeD on Jul 23, 2015 19:37:38 GMT -5
Steel will come into it's own 3-6 months after it hits the fan. Steel will take multiple hits, and for those of us that have no supply room to draw more ceramic plates from, this will/should be a deciding factor for having steel. I have both, but realize the ceramic is a one time use/hits item, and steel is a durable, long term piece of kit. A "New World Gunfighter" uses ceramic, an "Old World Survivalist" uses steel.
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Post by andrewe on Jul 24, 2015 1:10:45 GMT -5
Alternatively, a prepared armor wearer might also consider shopping around and buying replacement/backup plates in advance. HighCom has a standing 25% off coupon code for their multi-hit Level IV ceramics. Yes, eventually, if you get in enough gunfights after "it hits the fan" you'll run out. By then, though, I'd figure the law of averages would have you taking at least one round to other areas, ones less likely to be protected. However, in the meantime a set of 10x12 Level IV multi-hit, stand alone plates can be had for less than the cost of 1k of 5.56 ammo (after coupon, by the way it's "USAMADE" obviously without quotation marks), that weigh only 7.2lb each (in Shooter's Cut). In fact, after the code, a pair of 'em comes to about $238.50 (if you get the Active Shooter Response Kit plates only, for some reason they're more expensive bought a la carte), and the code may also include free shipping, but maybe not. Here's the set, I selected Shooter's Cut front and rear, and the 4SAS7 plates. Comes to $318 before the code, and $238.50 after. I checked, and their system let me apply the code to the (already cheaper) set. If I skip buying 1 case of Wolf Gold 5.56, which lately seems to be going for a shade over $300+shipping, I can afford a backup set of plates. At that price, for Level IV stand-alones that have been demonstrated (ask Currahee for his video) to take multiple hits of M193, M855, and various flavors of 7.62mm without failing, that's basically a no-brainer. Heck, I'd have ordered a set tonight except that my funds are beyond tapped-out right now. I figure with a few sets of plates (meaning 1 set to wear and 2 or 3 pairs of extras), I'll be likely to get disabled by a hit other than where my armor would be, long before I can actually run out of plates. Especially since plates only really cover a little under a square foot of front and rear torso, and even a toothpick like me has far more uncovered than covered area. Just my thoughts. Personally, if I can manage armor and it's not crazy-impractical, I'm probably going to lean towards wearing it, at least in a minimalist PC under my other gear. Got used to wearing nice, stiff, bulky LE armor in 105+ weather once upon a time, so it's not an unfamiliar set of demands. Cheers. EDIT: Or, if I'm dead set on saving weight for equal protection to steel (Level III), I could spend a fair bit more and get the 3S9 plates, which only weigh ~5lb each (whereas AR500 Armor's 10x12 are listed at 8lb plain, 8.75 with build-up anti-spall/frag coating) and are still rated for M193, M855, and 7.62mm NATO M80 ball. Then I'm at just over half the weight of steel plates, for much better mobility, at the cost of spending about twice the money. But for similar prices to reputable steel, after discount, the IV stand-alones offer better protection (IV calls for stopping .30-06 M2AP, and all the steel I found was "III+") at about 3/4lb less per plate. Lighter, similar cost (possibly lower, depending on the steel options), better protection? That seals it, to me. Obviously YMMV and all that. Though I might see about getting a set of build-up coated steel AR500 type for cardio training in gear, and keeping the ceramics for Serious Use.
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