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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 29, 2014 9:35:32 GMT -5
I cannot say for definite that I will act in one way or another, in a real world situation - As has been pointed out, it depends. I have acted in both ways (dropped/thrown a magazine AND retained.)
For me, I beleive that whilst TRAINING it's beneficial to get the repetitions in putting a magazine away with some semblence of speed and smoothly*. The more I practise, the easier it becomes, the faster I can do it. I agree that speed does count in a gunfight, but of course you can argue that you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
Dropping a magazine takes no training in itself (open your hand...) Making the decision to do it under pressure is something that you DO need to practise (How that's done is potentially a matter for debate - Having your buddy bound whilst you're trying to change mags and making the decision, doing solo drills and a new target pops up, or something similar. Basically something that makes you go 'Oh shit' and change what you're doing.
*This applies moreso if you're carrying 2-3 magazines in 1 retention system (pouch, bungee, pocket, whichever) because if you change magazine and leave your magazine pouch open you can (and will - I have) lose the other 1/2 magazines in there. For ME I wouldn't be intending to carry all the magazines in the world on my fighting gear (4-8, excluding what's on the rifle, depending on situation) so that's 1/4 to 1/3 of my fighting load, and potentially 1/2 or more of what I have left, if I've already expended a magazine or 2. If you're planning on using single magazine pouches like offered by UW, this isn't as much of an issue. Nor is it as much of an issue if you're fighting from a vehicle - Drop the damn thing on the floor/your lap every time!
Key for me is that: Yes, I will do whatever the situation dictates, but in my opinion I should train to retain, 90/10.
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Post by Hawkeye on Oct 29, 2014 10:07:00 GMT -5
Key for me is that: Yes, I will do whatever the situation dictates, but in my opinion I should train to retain, 90/10. I will preface the following by reminding everyone of this. Everything we discuss here on these forums, unless otherwise noted, is in the context of armed/prepared citizens in a catastrophic/shtf environment. That context is vital and can't be stressed enough. I like a 75/25 or even 70/30 ratio but that's just me (and I reseve the right to change/alter that as desired). Regardless, as has been said ad nauseum, practice both and let the situation dictate. It seems at like folks sometimes want to over think things and make them far more complex and difficult than they really are. Bottom line is, no one is forcing anyone to do it a particular way. Do what you want and be happy. Our position/opinion here is, that for the armed/prepared citizen working in small teams, retention should be done whenever possible, but (obviously) not at the cost of a life. It honestly blows my mind that I even need to say that. Just remember, your mags, like ammo, will most likely be a finite item. Plan and train accordingly.
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Post by Diz on Oct 29, 2014 14:12:38 GMT -5
I want to add in here, agreement is in everything is not always required. We can have difference of opinion without the "well you're an idiot if you don't do it my way" kind of thing.
USMC0331 believes in an emergency reload as a basis for what he's doing. There is validity in that approach. Especially with the newbies we will likely have to train. So I am NOT saying E-reloads are bullshit or anything of the sort. In fact, I can see this approach as being pretty standard until you can fight and still think at the same time.
USMC0302 (that would be me actually) believes that with proper stress inoculation, you can pull off some fine motor shit under extreme pressure. Now I cannot say with certainty that jumping will make you a JSOC stud in combat, but I think it can't hurt either. When you put yourself in harms way and you have this fear and adrenaline cocktail pushing your BP through the roof, you have to fight to get yourself to do things that are normally fairly simple, but under stress become hugely difficult. Putting yourself under timer, with a jury of your peers watching simulates this nicely.
My only difference is, instead of accepting this as just being a given, I think we need to practice fighting through it, until we CAN operate under stress, without defaulting to our lowest setting. I know, easy say, hard to do. But it's not out of reach.
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Post by panzer0170 on Oct 29, 2014 14:53:26 GMT -5
I think about the only thing you're going to get everyone to agree on is that we're not going to agree on everything I think the key here is that everyone agrees to an extent that you have to practise both - Some come from one end of the retention spectrum, others from the other end. Everything is going to be situationally dependant, and PERSONALLY dependant. Hell - We're assuming everyone that's fighting has detachable box magazines, which is a nice to have, but is it what you have right now? I think at this point we're done with the argument for at least six months till someone new joins and re-asks the question
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Post by USMC0331 on Oct 29, 2014 15:09:01 GMT -5
Diz, Last post = spot on
We just are approaching the same ground from opposite ends. Getting to the middle is the goal.
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Post by Diz on Oct 29, 2014 18:55:56 GMT -5
You know maybe I'm a delusional old man but I think we have something special here. Usually this kind of shit ends with name calling and all sorts of drama. I commend all you guys for taking such a level headed approach to this subject.
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 20, 2015 12:08:54 GMT -5
I think this is pertinent. I know this has been chewed up a few times now, but it always helps to have an extra piece of information, even if it is just anecdotal;
Replace the Gulf of Mexico filling up your city with say, snow? Swamp? Something like that. The final sentence is key, mind you; 'That's why we train BOTH.'
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Mar 20, 2015 13:15:35 GMT -5
for me, i have found that I will default to whatever i have the most reps on. "muscle memory" (in my opinion) is a real thing and it works. People freak out about small controls on the AR and how you can only carry out gross muscle movements under stress. I think these people are the same people who say women should carry revolvers because they are incapable of operating anything else.
if you train yourself to do perfect pushups, you will do perfect pushups under stress. if you consistently train to toe strike, you will toe strike on mile 23. Go smoke yourself, really smoke yourself, then run through your weapons manipulation. If it works, great, you'll most likely good to go. but if you cant move your rifle around, it may be to heavy. if you cant thing to hit the bolt release, then maybe you arent training the right way. If you train something until you CANT get it wrong, then it will be easier under stress. I of course acknowledge that every situation is different. I prefer to hold on to my magazines, and i prefer to not go empty on my rifle if i can help it. I train that way. its worked for me, and i don't think I'm different from most folks.
there are plenty of people who have done some really critical and complex thinking under stress. As long as you recognize fear and your response to it, you can plan accordingly. Simplicity often carries the day, but dont limit yourself.
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Post by panzer0170 on Mar 20, 2015 15:37:26 GMT -5
FINE motor skill does go to shit. I don't think any well designed firearm actually requires TRUE fine motor skills. Muscle memory IS a thing (Not just your opinion, science has proven it. Athletes prove it as an obvious example; A high level NFL player can throw a 'bad' pass consistently better than I could throw a good pass 1 time. Reps is everything. I'd disagree that you'd do perfect pushups if you train perfect, but they'd be more than good enough I'm relatively happy to go empty, but that comes from training with tracer to pre-warn me about a mag change. I'll admit it's not the MOST efficient way to do it, but I've not found (yet) a better way to monitor ammo so I use enough of the magazine that I'm not wasting 5+ rounds every mag. On that note, how do you manage it eddiewouldclearhot?
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Post by eddiewouldclearhot on Mar 23, 2015 12:55:48 GMT -5
i just shoot till empty then put a new mag in. I have not been able to count rounds in a fight, my only observation is that if you are generally aiming, you probably have more ammo than you think. use cover when you can. so if you do go dry unexpectedly, well, you have cover.
if i shoot more than a few rounds (lets just guesstimate over 10) i change magazines when i get to a covered/concealed position. place the least fresh one furthest away from my reloading hand (this means I grab it from the furthest away as well)
When i First tried UW gear rigs, i walked all night through a jungle, then attacked a city with simunitions. the rigs made it really easy to put that no so fresh magazine back in the pouch for later. So i dont see a reason not to do it if tactically feasible. Despite a 3 hour firefight, i got through it with 5 magazines, and even had some spare ammo at the end. I'll see if can find the after action review i wrote for hawkeye a long time ago.
On another note, thanks to everyone for putting up with my grammar and general ramblings, been short on sleep for a little while. hopefully i'll start making some sense soon ; )
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Post by Patriotic Sheepdog on Mar 23, 2015 19:06:24 GMT -5
i just shoot till empty then put a new mag in. I have not been able to count rounds in a fight, my only observation is that if you are generally aiming, you probably have more ammo than you think. use cover when you can. so if you do go dry unexpectedly, well, you have cover. if i shoot more than a few rounds (lets just guesstimate over 10) i change magazines when i get to a covered/concealed position. place the least fresh one furthest away from my reloading hand (this means I grab it from the furthest away as well) When i First tried UW gear rigs, i walked all night through a jungle, then attacked a city with simunitions. the rigs made it really easy to put that no so fresh magazine back in the pouch for later. So i dont see a reason not to do it if tactically feasible. Despite a 3 hour firefight, i got through it with 5 magazines, and even had some spare ammo at the end. I'll see if can find the after action review i wrote for hawkeye a long time ago. On another note, thanks to everyone for putting up with my grammar and general ramblings, been short on sleep for a little while. hopefully i'll start making some sense soon ; ) You make fine sense. Thanks for your insights.
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Post by omnivorous on Mar 23, 2015 23:00:56 GMT -5
I randomly thought of an analogy regarding the subject of reloading with retention tonight. It goes like, if you drink all of the water from your canteen, do you then throw that canteen away? Its just a canteen, you can just get more of them, right?
That video with John Farnam reminds me of another thought I've had, and that is, I really think that in a grid-down, WROL-type of situation, which would involve an armed citizen group having to conduct "operations" to any extent, is likely going to be very much along the lines that high-risk contractors conduct.
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Post by waffenmacht on Mar 24, 2015 7:15:47 GMT -5
Having watched a ton of footage from the time detachable magazines began to be common (around WW2) until the most recent combat footage from today (Ukrainian conflict) it is apparent that you don't have to pick one way or the other for every situation. Common sense must prevail here. If you are forced to engage the enemy at close range, where 1/4 of a second can mean life or death, by all means let the magazine hit the deck, ( just as you would let you canteen hit the deck rather then trying to stow it as rounds passed through your body). On the other hand, if you are firing in the general direction of the enemy, or laying suppression fire, or are with a team of guys dug in and you have cover, there's nothing wrong with using that cover and taking the time to stow your magazine in a dump pouch or pocket. Train using both techniques, as you don't really know which one you will need until the moment arises...We call that, having an extra feather in your hat.
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Post by Hawkeye on Mar 24, 2015 7:23:20 GMT -5
Having watched a ton of footage from the time detachable magazines began to be common (around WW2) until the most recent combat footage from today (Ukrainian conflict) it is apparent that you don't have to pick one way or the other for every situation. Common sense must prevail here. If you are forced to engage the enemy at close range, where 1/4 of a second can mean life or death, by all means let the magazine hit the deck, ( just as you would let you canteen hit the deck rather then trying to stow it as rounds passed through your body). On the other hand, if you are firing in the general direction of the enemy, or laying suppression fire, or are with a team of guys dug in and you have cover, there's nothing wrong with using that cover and taking the time to stow your magazine in a dump pouch or pocket. Train using both techniques, as you don't really know which one you will need until the moment arises...We call that, having an extra feather in your hat. Why this is so hard for some people to understand, I'll never know.
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protus
Junior Member
Posts: 323
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Post by protus on Apr 11, 2015 4:36:11 GMT -5
just my lil 2 cents. To me mags are cheap but as posted if you constantly dump you will run out. But the flip side is how many fire fights can i go through before that point or i come upon resupply? I train to both retain and dump. But im a simple guy when it comes to my gear etc and fully believe in KISS. in other words the scenario in how i came into contact will dictate how i retain or not. I stumble into a small patrol while doing my own back 40 check and its a 6 to 2 game..ill dump my mags and de ass and re-assess once clear. if ive got cover and help via a team ill stow my mags. A 9$ chunk of metal is not worth it. IMHO shtf is a two way street either ill get resupplied in some fashion or the "other" guys will...no way to sugar coat it honestly. in that whole wrol/shtf context. you just cant limit yourself to one line of thought or you will fail be it reloads or gear or planning.
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