AAR - Behind Lines Winter Class 28JAN12 Sayre PA

[TX-Zen]

Behindlines.net class, 28JAN12 in Sayre, PA AAR

Hey guys, I mention this later in the AAR but Diz and Hawk put together a new SVD rig for me and I have to say that I am extremely happy with it. It ran like a champ all through the class. Just wanted to say thanks guys!


AAR:
For those of you not familiar with him, Marco Vorbiev is an ex Spetznas who served in the Russian Afghan war as an SVD marksman. Last year I took his class to get some formal training on the SVD itself and to see what the class was all about. I walked away with a very different mindset on the SVD than I started with and learned alot. This year I decided to take the class again as a little bit of a refresher and to see where I was at with some of the things I had learned. I was joined by Nictra and Auzie, two of my good TX shooting buddies and we met up with C-4 from Arfcom. He turned out to be hilarious and fit right in.
Like last year the class was held in Sayre PA but not at the same range as before. This year Voron from theakforum.net worked with a local farmer and got us access to his land, we ended up getting to shoot to 600m and had plenty of manuever room for the infantry stuff. For anyone interested last year's review IS HERE

Marco's style is professional and informative and he can dial his instruction up or down based on the experience of the student. This year we had 8 in the class, with a mix of LEO, ex military, one active Army and a couple civilians. Everyone learned something and I think everyone saw their shooting improve, found things to work on and got a better idea of how a DMR can be employed.

Day 1 consisted of meet and greet/introductions, class overview, safety brief and course content/overview. The first order of business in the morning was confirming zero and getting gear situated as needed, then it was run and gun all day with a lot of infantry manuevers as well as a full day of live fire, which included shooting from the moving 'BMP' and movement to contact drills. As in my previous AAR the intent of the class is not about ultra precision - one shot one kill type shooting...it's about getting the most out of a semi automatic DMR rifle under multiple target dynamic engagements. The drills were about speed and rapid fire rather than pin point shooting, and were designed to teach you to shoot with 'practical accuracy'. Of notable mention is the concept of double tapping or firing two shots back to back with a DMR, something that last year I had never really thought of doing with a scoped rifle. With some practice it is quite effective and is intended to be used on most every target engaged unless maximum possible accuracy is necessary.

One thing I like about how Marco teaches is the common sense attitude of the instruction...if you shoot too fast you will miss, so the natural thing to do is dial your speed in to the level where you can hit reliably during the double tap. I think most of the shooters learned what their sweet spot was and got 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards while shooting high speed timed drills at multiple targets, typically 8 targets/16 rounds in 24 seconds. 6 inches may not sound that great but again that is plenty good enough to score center mass hits out to 300m and further while shooting pretty quickly. Auzie really tore these drills up, on day 1 he shot some honest 2 inch groups using ball ammo and his Tiger. I've seen Tiger's do that from the bench but he had a knack for doing it at high speed.

Last thing We did after sunset was night fire with Marco's 1PN34 and 1PN58. I would have brought my 1PN34 again like last year but I accidently pulled a wire from the AA battery mod and didn't have time to fix it before I left for the class. I think the guys who had never seen or really shot with night vision got a big kick of using them, they do work well despite appearing to be ancient 80's era equipment. I know I really like my 1PN34.

Day 2 was building and proofing a battle position, learning how to construct a camoflauged snipers nest, how to create a range card and then shoot, shoot, shoot all day long. 14 targets ranged from 200m to 600m and we had to continually engage random targets called out by Marco. We learned a bit about estimating wind and how to compensate for it, how to use hold overs and hold unders to rapidly engage targets instead of adjusting the turrets on the optics. Again it was about practical speed and putting down a volume of fire to quickly overwhelm the engagement area targets. Another point to consider is that on day 1 in particular every drill we ran involved some level of physical exertion and was intended to put us in uncomfortable shooting positions with elevated heart rates. The intent was to show you that under real conditions you won't have the luxury of time and comfort to take the perfect shot, and that you must learn to shoot well with whatever you have at that moment. Good stuff IMO

We didn't get any snow unfortunately, the week before the class PA was in the 40's and it all melted. We did get to roll around in icy slush on day 1 but day 2 was colder and windier, particularly in the afternoon. Overall I think the weather was great and no one complained about the lack of snow. I'll also say a good word for the Gorka mountain suits we had, they worked like a charm.

Speaking of good words, a big thanks must be given to Voron of theakforum.net. Without him these classes would not be possible...he works tirelessly all weekend to keep everything moving, to help shooters get on target and to solve the inevitable problems that crop up. His generosity is amazing and he's good people. Thanks!


On to the pics:



Day 1 checking zero.




Practicing the combat roll in preparation for the dismount from the moving BMP




And the BMP takes off






Field manuevers

Ex Marine, Auzie, Nictra and Zen in the rear, rest of the squad is in the tree line ahead






Why did the Zen cross the road, you ask?



To get to the shooting on the other side of course





Live fire - movement to contact and engaging to the right, targets 50-200m out. We did this in relays a number of times.




This is one of my favorite parts of the class, shooting from the moving 'BMP'. These pics are side to side shooting, we also did moving forward and backward again on a different part of the road.






Day 2 on the battle position overlooking the engagement area. There were 14 targets from 200m to 600m.
In this first picture there are 8 of us hidden at the top of the position. We were close together for practical purposes and to maximize safety, but it goes to show what a little camo can do to hide a lot of guys in a small area if need be. I'm on the left of the photo for reference of the size of the BP



Showing my position without being under my poncho



The engagement area, far edge of the treeline was about 700m or so


View from next to the PSO turret


View through the PSO



Auzie and the Tiger


Izhmash MP spotter scope (up to 20x variable magnification)


Auzie improving his position. We used hay for efficiencies sake but would have taken the time to use existing vegetation to match the position we were in had it been for real.








I'd have to say the battle position shooting was my favorite event overall. We shot further than last year, had to deal with a 15-20mph wind with freezing gusts while being under a poncho with foliage on top and doing timed drills with random targets called by Marco. Random targets from 200m to 600m across the width of the engagement area isn't as simple as it sounds, wind and hold overs change because of the various distances and it's not the easiest thing to do under pressure that's for sure. There was a lot going on but I was happy with my results and during the process I learned a few things about hold overs and how to better use the PSO reticule at speed. Once again the emphasis was on combat speed shooting, not precision sniper shots.




Misc

Nictra with FAL


C-4 with his PSL


Marco showing how to do a transition with the DMR


J with Marco's SVDS. He used his own PSL in class and Marco commented that he was the best PSL marksman he had ever taught. Guy could definitely hit with it, I was impressed.


C-4 with Marco's SVDS


My trusty NDM86





T and J, good guys. T was a police instructor and J was someone who had taken a lot of classes. Both squared away and I think they had a good time also. Yes, some of J's gear was white. We were expecting snow after all

T's 308 AR



Auzie on the rampage in Gorka-R with his Tiger


Nictra with FAL in Gorka-E summer/green colored mountain suit and me in Gorka-E autumn/brown colored suit with NDM86. Can't say enough good about the Gorka mountain suits...worth every freakin penny. Perfect for the wet and cold conditions we were in.




Gear details for anyone interested:

The uniforms that Auzie, Nictra and I wore were Gorka mountain suits. www.soviet-propaganda.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_24&products_id=8 These are produced by SPOSN in Russia and designed for cold weather and mountain use. They work...and they work extremely well. All you need to do is wear the appropriate layers underneither for warmth and the Gorka will keep you dry and protect you from the wind. I wore only one single base layer of thin smart wool and I was fine all weekend, especially when moving. The two tone OD colored one is Gorka-R, the greenish one is Gorka-E Summer and the brown one I had on is Gorka-E Autumn pattern.

For my chest rig I asked Hawkeye and Diz to make me a new 10 mag SVD rig in the SURPAT pattern and it completely rocked. I was extremely happy with it and will be posting a seperate review once it gets shipped back to me. I also used my old school LBE that I kept from my time in the Army and it worked as good as always, combined with the chest rig I had everything I needed with me at all times.



Once again big thanks to Voron from theakforum.net for putting the class on, like last year without him there wouldn't have been a class in the first place.

Thanks!

[TX-Zen]

Last year's review (just the text)

First thing about Marco is how down to earth he is and how easy he is to get along with. He's friendly and makes a point to talk to students on their level of expertise, he doesn't act like you have to be a high speed operator to understand what he's teaching and also listens well to questions. Just like most of the exceptional career soldiers I've met he struck me as being highly intelligent, well versed in his material and able to explain things so they made sense and you could take something away from the training. I personally enjoyed his teaching style and what he had to offer, and the class itself was full of things that I was interested to know more about. He had a good way of speaking to the group about the topic at hand and also tailored the one on one instruction on how the topic applied to each student.

I discovered the class wasn't really about the Dragunov at all, it was all about how a DMR type rifle is employed...the specific rifle doesn't matter, only what it can do and how it's used. In essence the Dragunov itself wasn't what was important and you didn't need one for the class. We had 3 AR's, 2 PSL's and only one Dragunov, IMO we all did about the same shooting wise. Another thing is that this course wasn't a beginner's marksmanship class, it was assumed that students had a certain level of proficiency with their chosen rifle. At first I was more or less expecting some deeper insight into the SVD and PSO scope but came to find out that really none of that was covered. I realized pretty quickly why...there actually isn't anything magical about the rifle or scope, everything you need to know about them is basically common sense and the Russians really don't have any mysterious tricks up their sleeve... that he taught us anyway .

I'll also say that the class was really about simplicity...rolling around in the snow for 2 days will really highlight flaws with your gear choices, weapon handling abilities and even the choice of rifle to some extent. It wasn't how to be a commando, it was about how a rfle squad moves and deploys in combat conditions and how to engage targets from short range to long across the width and depth of an engagement area. Much of it was plain old horse sense and focused on simplicity rather than flashy moves. I found it to be very enjoyable and learned a few interesting shooting techniques. A subtler point that stuck out to me was about movement...both yours and the target's and how to think about the DMR in a less than pretty one shot one kill mentality.


Day one started at 100m checking our zero and making minor adjustments. A perfect zero wasn't required for what was being taught, rather the principle of rapid relatively accurate fire was most important, not being able to put two rounds in the same hole. The first series of exercises focused on shooting multiple targets rapidly. We had 6 lanes set up (one for each of us) with 4 small targets per lane. Marco would hand out a shooting order...1.3, 2.4, 5.1 and 6.2 for example. That mean your first target was in lane 1 and you were shooting at small circle #3. Second target was lane number two, circle #4, 3rd target lane 5 circle #1 and so on. We had 35 seconds to shoot 24 rounds which for a Dragunov meant two reloads...at 3-5 seconds per reload I was looking at about 25 seconds for 24 rounds. Wasn't easy, the best I did was 22 rounds and 2 mag changes. I could usually get off 20 rounds and be ready to fire the first round of the last mag right as the whistle blew and time ended.

What surprised me about this exercise was how accurate I was at speed and how relatively tight the groupings were at that rate of fire. I was getting most of my rounds into a 6" circle on each target and I literally had only enough time to put the chevron in the black and squeeze off two rounds quick before I moved to the next target. What the technique demonstrated was that many things in shooting are automatic when done at high speed, basically the less you think the better you do as an average. No you don't hit one MOA at that speed but you are able to put two kill shots into a target rapidly while using a scope...they don't have to be pretty, they just need to get the job done - again, nothing fancy, just a practical way to take advantage of the semi automatic design of the SVD. Another aspect of the drill was to acquire multiple targets spread across the width of an engagement area...its a lot harder to swing the muzzle back and forth across many targets when shooting at that speed, and that lesson is one I found particularly valuable. It's a complete break from the way I've learned to shoot a scoped rifle which is to take the time to breath, aim, squeeze one round off and then shoot again. This is much more like the pavlovian response beaten into me by the US Army M16 training where as soon as you see a target you tend to reflexively aim and shoot, the fundamentals are there in the background and should work automatically. They definately seemed to work during this drill.

Another thing I took away was the rapid fire itself. Marco stressed the rapid doubletap for getting the highest practical chance to hit, not using deliberate slow fire for maximum accuracy. Certain parts of doubletap are situational dependant obviously, as in you probably wouldn't do it if the target were at 500m with just his head exposed for example, but his intent was to show that even an optically sighted rifle can use the technique to good advantage, particularly in a skirmish with multiple moving targets. Again I wouldn't say this was a must use technique for everyday life but it did give me more insight into what a DMR can do in the right hands. It was also good for increasing confidence in your rifle...the technique works and when you see the results it gives you a new appreciation for your rifle because you actually can put down a high volume of relative accurate fire. Another insight was that my groups varied between which target I was shooting at...certain angles of shooting gave tighter groups than others which is something that I hadn't ever noticed shooting at the same target repeatedly during slow fire on the range in Texas. Not an earth shattering observation but it demonstrated differences in body position and the effect it has on accuracy.

During the first day we also hopped into the back of a pickup truck to shoot on the move. This was to simulate engaging from a BMP troop carrier and while I really doubt I'd be on top of a BMP during SHTF, once again I found the exercise to be useful. It's not easy to shoot with an optic from the back of a truck bouncing through the snow, the reticule flies all over the place and it's hard to get any kind of sight picture. Something new occured as well...eye relief on a PSO scope must be taken into account. From the bench it's always right, in the real world you have to learn fast how to reflexively get lined up correctly...not easy either. Nonetheless I hit way more than I thought I would and noticed something subtle here too...with practice it IS possible to hit from a moving vehicle and while it probably won't be a common occurance in real life, it also increased my confidence with the Dragunov because again, it does work and it is possible.

The first round of truck shooting involved driving back and forth parallel to the steel targets we set up at 100m. The second run was much harder, which was shooting prone while driving towards and away from many many targets. While the first run was only two targets, the second was about 8 spread out somewhat horizontally and to about 50-75m in depth. The truck brought us to point blank on some and closer to 75m on others while we were bouncing around in the back. While using the optic we had to enage all the targets as fast as we could, reload and continue to engage. I found this to be really tough because of how far the rifle had to swing back and forth due to the close ranges and how huge the targets were in the optic. Logically I would have thought it a better idea to use irons at closer ranges but the point of the exercise is that your optic can be used at any range, on any number of targets while stationary or on the move. It reinforced the first moving drill and added on to the rapid fire drill we did from the prone position earlier in the day.

In actuallity I can say that because of these first exercises I will probably never look at my drag the same way again...I won't be subconciously burdened with shooting it like a scoped rifle, now view it now as a rapid fire multipurpose rifle that can be used in several 'unconventional' ways to good effect. It's a very intersting experience I must say.


Marco cooked us a great lunch of boiled buckweat and canned ham, horrible tasting russian canned fish, good Russian bread, hot tea with condensed milk and some snacks. It was a great time with all of us shooting the sh*t and talking about whatever, informal and friendly...kind of like an infantry squad in the field I guess, which fit in with the class. Food was good, the fire was nice and the company pleasant, it was nice way to warm up and prepare for the next round of shooting.

After lunch we got into our winter camo gear and went on manuevers like a rifle squad, occupied a battle position, proofed it and did a range card from our position designating targets, fields of fire, distance and obstructions. This was actually identical to my training as a tank commander in the Army and I felt right at home. From the battle position we engaged multiple targets from 150m to about 350m. I was doing pretty well and then mysteriously my zero disappeared. Thanks to good spotting by Voron I was able to adjust fire and use my second chevron to get back on target and continued doing alright for the rest of the day. I'd say under other circumstances the loss of zero might have soured the day but I decided to roll with it just like I'd have to in real life, overall I was happy with my shooting and it didn't interfere with the training. It was also during this period that I learned snow is a real PITA for a sloppy ex tanker like me, I continually had foggy lenses, snow in the mags and had a couple failure to feeds due to somehow getting snow up in the magwell. I caught Marco giving me the stink eye a couple times and had to admit I was pretty hamfisted with the drag, but it was a good reminder of how to take care of your rifle because you have to count on it. What can I say, I'm still a CDAT at heart.

We did a few more manuevers and then broke for dinner and while the sun went down we prepared for the night fire familarization part of the class. Marco had a 1PN34 and a 1PN58 on his SVDS and SVD so the students could get a taste of what Afghan era night fighting was like. I had brought my own 1PN34 and was pleasantly surprised to see the zero was still good. Without the lense cap the optic did very well at 350m...targets were easy to see with just a bit of background light from someone's car and I got a much better sense of what the 1PN34 can really do at night under the right conditions. I think everyone had a great time shooting in the dark. Prior to the sun going down Marco broke out his semi auto PKM...now that was a blast


Day two involved a lot of simulated infantry stuff...dismounting from the BMP, combat rolls in the snow and jumping off a moving vehicle. I think we all pretty much agreed a couple iterations of each brought the point home...rolling in the snow sucks. We also broke into teams of three and did a simulated contact drill where we were 'engaged' and had to take cover and lay down fire, duck under cover to reload and coordinate breaking contact. Another variation of the drill was transitioning to our secondary weapon, in this case most of us had AKS74's. I never would have thought it but there is a technique to slinging the drag and deploying the AKS74 for close combat and to lay down suppressive fire to disengage from contact. It's not easy (especially when prone) but it is possible with practice and was something that Marco explained the Spetznaz did in real life. They all carried some kind of defense weapon and had to know how to get the drag out of the way in a hurry. Again I'm impressed with the Russians emphasize on simplicity...despite the drag being 4 feet long it can be efficiently slung quickly and there's a reason they learned how to use the technique.

In the afternoon we drove up the range a ways and shot targets out to 500m which was the furthest practical distance we could get on the range. Not as far as I'd hoped and not as far as I've shot in real life but it was fun and I think good practice for all of us. We had trouble with the 500m target because it was lost in shadow as the sun was going down, but I think all of us hit it at least once. Marco had said at the beginning of the class that we would continually improve over two days and IMO he was right, I believe all of us got better and certainly ended up with more confidence in our rifles. I had a blast and I think everyone else did too.


I'd encourage anyone interesting in more dynamic shooting to take a look at Marco's class. It's not intended to teach fundamentals ala Appleseed for example but I think its useful for improving marksmanship skills under a variety of circumstances. I certainly found the class worth the time and money.

[matt]

Great pics! Sayre isn't far from my old stomping grounds in NEPA.

[UnforseenWeather]

Very interesting class and great, detailed AAR!

The DMR concept is one that interests me a lot and I am trying to scrounge some parts together to create my own based on the M1A rifle... One day I need to take a class like this.

[Hawkeye]

Zen, Now thats what I am talking about. Solid, realistic, down to earth no BS training, and using your weapon and gear the way its intended to be used. Excellent all the way around!! Thanks for posting it! I'd love to get a class in sometime with Macro. Definitely on my to do list.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Nice review and pics. Thanks for the AAR.